I Pit people who misrepresent Christianity as polytheistic

[lurking_guest]

Raised Catholic here. Graduation from a Catholic school.

Not too bad an IQ.

First Commandment: I am the Lord Thy God. Thou shalt not have strange Gods before Me.

The Catholic church made Mary “Co-Mediatrix” with Christ?

She was born without sin. (“They” said.)

The “Rosary.”

It just gets worser and worser as far as “Nepotism” and “Gods” go…

Hopefully…most Christians believe that their relationship with ‘God’ - however one knows Him/Her/It/No Gender/No Ability to Comprehend - is PERSONAL.

One’s relationship to God is as different as the multiple billions of persons upon this earth.

Scratch Catholics and every other denomination.

Christianity relies only upon THEIR own personal relationship and PERSONAL knowledge of Christ.

Which ain’t too bad considering that He (or, Whom-and- what- ever personage) said that loving one’s neighbor as one’s self IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

“He” preached LOVE. And that IT is the answer to all flaws and failings.

So did…(name your own loved Leaders.)

Perhaps it ALL arises from some substantive truth.

[monavis]

@MrDibble

Are these pictures displayed in a place where people go to, you know, worship things?What about my post makes you think I needed to be told this?My point was that these people don’t cease to be Catholics just because they don’t get the finer points of doctrine. Who was the last Catholic excommunicated or even censured for treating MAry with more deference than her due, for example?It’s a little bit more than that, though, isn’t it, to your average uneducated Catholic.Again, telling me things I know. Read my post again - I wasn’t saying those two particular things made her divine. I was saying they are examples of folk belief about Mary transmuted into infallible doctrine.

I do not know any one who worships things,
because a statue or picture is around doen’t mean they are worshiped. Standing in front of one to be remined of the person or helping them consentrate whiole praying is not worship!

I also know a lot of Catholics and they do not worship Mary or any other human being, they may admire her(as they have been taught about her), but that is a far cry from worship. As far as I know no one has ever been told they must honor Mary, maybe some Catholic could answer you this if that is now the teaching of the church.

[monavis]

@monavis

I do not know any one who worships things,
because a statue or picture is around doen’t mean they are worshiped. Standing in front of one to be remined of the person or helping them consentrate whiole praying is not worship!

I also know a lot of Catholics and they do not worship Mary or any other human being, they may admire her(as they have been taught about her), but that is a far cry from worship. As far as I know no one has ever been told they must honor Mary, maybe some Catholic could answer you this if that is now the teaching of the church.

I might add that folk belif is not RCC doctrine.

[Knorf]

@monavis

The Christians I know do not worship Mary, they honor her as the Mother of Jesus and ask for her prayers, just as some people ask others to pray for them. It is a much misunderstood part of the RCC. They consider that God is the only one worthy of worship.

As an outside observer, I see a lot of Mary worship. Petitions for miracles, praising of holiness/saintliness, reverence for her perfection (i.e. without sin), etc. Worship. Look at how many people get worked up over the appearance of a Mary-shaped stain on an overpass or something. How is that not worship?

I’m convinced that Christianity in general and Roman Catholicism in particular are polytheistic, and that saying otherwise is basic sophistry.

[Der_Trihs]

@monavis

I might add that folk belif is not RCC doctrine.

Irrelevant in this case. A folk belief is just as much a belief as anything handed down by the Pope. The question here is not after all “what is the official position of the Catholic Church”; it is “what do they really believe, and how should those beliefs be defined”.

[Mapache]

There are about a hundred million Mexicans who unquestionably worship Mary, in a number of forms. There’s the Virgin of Guadalupe, who just last week shut down most of Mexico City as three million pilgrims came to her shrine, some of them crawling on their knees for miles. Oaxaca has at least three miraculous Virgins, all of whose images (statues, unlike the V of G who is a painting) are supposed to either have appeared, or been saved from a fire or earthquake, by magic. The statues are regularly reclothed, decorated with gold and paraded around, and if what the adoring crowds are doing isn’t worship I can’t think what worship might be. And there’s the Virgen de Juquila, another magical statue that brings Indians on bicycles by the tens of thousands every December. And lots more.

[monavis]

@Knorf

As an outside observer, I see a lot of Mary worship. Petitions for miracles, praising of holiness/saintliness, reverence for her perfection (i.e. without sin), etc. Worship. Look at how many people get worked up over the appearance of a Mary-shaped stain on an overpass or something. How is that not worship?

I’m convinced that Christianity in general and Roman Catholicism in particular are polytheistic, and that saying otherwise is basic sophistry.

Humans honor a lot of people’s virtues, and asking Mary or the saints to pray for you is actually claiming they are not worshiping a God but asking a friend of their God to pray for them. The prayer to Mary Catholics make, says,“Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death”, They ask Mary and the saints to ask God. I do not personally believe prayer is necessary to an all knowing being, but I respect the right of people who disagree with me to follow thier beliefs as long as their beliefs do not bring harm to others.

Look at the homage paid to the Beatles, Elvis, or Michael Jackson is that worship? I would say it was admiration for a talent they are considered to have, not worship. Fans do it for sport stars actors etc. not worship in my opinion. I do not think a God would need or want worship either as that would be a selfish act and if God is love and Love is not self seeking etc. as Paul states, then a God would not have need of anything. A full cup can’t have anything added!

[monavis]

@Mapache

There are about a hundred million Mexicans who unquestionably worship Mary, in a number of forms. There’s the Virgin of Guadalupe, who just last week shut down most of Mexico City as three million pilgrims came to her shrine, some of them crawling on their knees for miles. Oaxaca has at least three miraculous Virgins, all of whose images (statues, unlike the V of G who is a painting) are supposed to either have appeared, or been saved from a fire or earthquake, by magic. The statues are regularly reclothed, decorated with gold and paraded around, and if what the adoring crowds are doing isn’t worship I can’t think what worship might be. And there’s the Virgen de Juquila, another magical statue that brings Indians on bicycles by the tens of thousands every December. And lots more.

This may be true but it is not RCC doctrine. Since I do not know the hearts of the people who do this I can’t say if they are worshipping Mary or if they are paying honor to her. If they place her on a par with their God then it would be considered against the church’s teachings.

Do American’s worship the Flag? I do not think so!!

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Well, kinda. We pledge allegiance to it, which is pretty fuckin’ weird. It’s a piece of cloth.

I’m still waiting to find out if polytheism is somehow inferior or something.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@monavis

This may be true but it is not RCC doctrine. Since I do not know the hearts of the people who do this I can’t say if they are worshipping Mary or if they are paying honor to her. If they place her on a par with their God then it would be considered against the church’s teachings.

So? The RCC only has whatever authority people attribute to it. It’s not like God is some trade secret that only they have access to and everyone has to use the RCC as their middleman. It’s what they say, but that doesn’t make it true. Heck, even among people who really do their best to follow RCC rules (religiously, as it were), there are and always have been schisms and conflicts.

Personally, I see no reason to trust the RCC’s interpretation of God over that of, say, some random guy preaching on a streetcorner. In fact, the streetcorner guy might actually be more sincere in his beliefs.

[ivan_astikov]

It wouldn’t make him any less deluded, however sincere he was.

I have belief and faith that the sun is going to continue to rise and set throughout my physical existence, but these beliefs are evidence and experience based, and make no moral judgements on others for their world view.

[BwanaBob]

@gonzomax

Saints can answer prayers. That gives them godlike abilities. Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary for a purpose. She is supposed to be able to grant wishes. I find the trinity problem to be minor in regard to polytheism. Is is just another example.

Saints (for example, Mary, Jude) are intercessors, not beings with powers in and of themselves. They are the equivalent of lobbyists. However, one can appeal (pray) to God directly, much like you can write your senator directly. You appeal to saints to pray for you.

In short, angels and saints are not deities in the sense that they are not worshipable entities. Since Christians do not worship Satan either, that sort of reduces your deity list to one. Trinity - 3 faces of the same entity.

[Superfluous_Parentheses]

@BwanaBob

Saints (for example, Mary, Jude) are intercessors, not beings with powers in and of themselves. They are the equivalent of lobbyists. However, one can appeal (pray) to God directly, much like you can write your senator directly. You appeal to saints to pray for you.

In short, angels and saints are not deities in the sense that they are not worshipable entities. Since Christians do not worship Satan either, that sort of reduces your deity list to one. Trinity - 3 faces of the same entity.

Not pointing the finger at you specifically:

Why - if your god is omnipotent etc - would you aim your prayers at some"thing" else? It seems not only illogical and dangerous but outright insulting to God to pray for intervention by some minor “helper”. Since he’s (for some reason he’s a male…) already aware of everything you and me and every other creature is doing.

I can see I can make an argument from there that prayers are insulting anyway, but I can’t see why praying to some minor character is anything but dangerous.

Yeah I don’t believe in any of that, but if I did, that should be a legitimate concern.

[MyFootsZZZ]

How is Santa not a God? Think about that.

Why would God need prayers in the first place? Why would praying help sway God to do anything if he’s so perfect? If I’m not in as many people’s prayers, does that mean I’m going to have bad luck?

[Knorf]

@BwanaBob

Saints (for example, Mary, Jude) are intercessors, not beings with powers in and of themselves. They are the equivalent of lobbyists. However, one can appeal (pray) to God directly, much like you can write your senator directly. You appeal to saints to pray for you.

It’s pretty clear that a lot of people’s devotion to Mary goes way beyond what you describe.

[dropzone]

@Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension

Ahah! Godwian’s Law.

Can one both win a thread and earn himself a dope slap?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@BwanaBob

Saints (for example, Mary, Jude) are intercessors, not beings with powers in and of themselves. They are the equivalent of lobbyists. However, one can appeal (pray) to God directly, much like you can write your senator directly. You appeal to saints to pray for you.

In short, angels and saints are not deities in the sense that they are not worshipable entities. Since Christians do not worship Satan either, that sort of reduces your deity list to one. Trinity - 3 faces of the same entity.

“worshipability” is not a necessary criterion for an entity to be a deity.

Zorastrianism (a source for much of Jewish and Christian theology) contains a good god and an evil anti-god, as well as a number of lesser gods called “devas” (which literally meant “gods” in the language of Zoroaster…interestingly, variations on this originally Indo-European word have evolved into both “devil,” and such other words as the Latin “deus,” the English “deity”, and even the Greek name of Zeus). Both the evil anti-god (Ahriman), and the devas are explicitly recognized as gods, albeit evil, or “wrong gods,” who it is forbidden to worship, but they are believed to actually exist, so is Zoroastrianism monotheism or polytheistic? They only worship one god, but believe that others exist.

Is there a significant difference between Ahriman and his devas, and Satan and his demons?

[Der_Trihs]

@MyFootsZZZ

How is Santa not a God? Think about that.

He’s not really an object of veneration? More of a supernatural guy you bribe with milk and cookies; the “jolly old elf”. When non-god supernaturals end and gods start is something of a grey area.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@BwanaBob

Saints (for example, Mary, Jude) are intercessors, not beings with powers in and of themselves.

Well, despite being dead, they can supposedly hear prayers. That’s kinda extraordinary, since I often can’t even get people in the same room to listen to me.

[monavis]

@ivan_astikov

It wouldn’t make him any less deluded, however sincere he was.

I have belief and faith that the sun is going to continue to rise and set throughout my physical existence, but these beliefs are evidence and experience based, and make no moral judgements on others for their world view.

The fact is, the sun doesn’t rise or set…it seems that way because the earth turns.