# I pit president Bush; with blood on his hands. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078 "2004-12-22T00:08:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/41 "2004-12-22T04:42:10Z")
I read threads like this and am dismayed by the apparent desire I see to have the US be the bad guys. It seems like a lot of you are really eager that the US be wrong, that Bush be wrong. That we be evil. I see no other way to explain the hyperbole and jumping to conclusions. Believe what you want to believe. I for one, would like to see the executive order, if it exists before I make any conclusions. But then, I don’t hate my country. I am not blinded by that hate or my hate for Bush, or by paranoia. I don’t want us to fail, or to be the bad guys. Further, I am more concerned about our soldiers and civilians who are getting their heads chopped off. When I compare that fact to the accusation that we are **allegedly** by executive order, treating detainees like med students, I feel pretty confident that I’m on the right side of this conflict. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/42 "2004-12-22T04:45:32Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I read threads like this and am dismayed by the apparent desire I see to have the US be the bad guys. It seems like a lot of you are really eager that the US be wrong, that Bush be wrong. That we be evil. > > I see no other way to explain the hyperbole and jumping to conclusions. Believe what you want to believe. > > I for one, would like to see the executive order, if it exists before I make any conclusions. > > But then, I don’t hate my country. I am not blinded by that hate or my hate for Bush, or by paranoia. I don’t want us to fail, or to be the bad guys… Just keep taking your red pills and saying that the only reason people are saying all those bad things is because they’re meanies. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/43 "2004-12-22T04:46:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t mean to piss on anyone’s parade, but what makes you think this is a new aspect of American foreign policy? The U.S. did many of the same things in Vietnam. Atrocities were rampant. Shit, I knew a guy who bragged about pushing POWs out of helicopters to convince others to talk. That’s on top of things like bombing civilians on purpose on Laos, using chemicals to destroy crops and drive people into starvation or submission, etc. etc. Or funding, supporting and training fascist regimes in Central America that did all this and more. Do you think Bush and the Republican Party invented this shit? > > I find it bizarre that people NOW beging to cry out that this sort of behaviour will make people hate the US. It’s been going on a long time. Why are you just noticing it now? Bush claimed the moral high ground during his re-election campaign. He had God on his side. He wanted to bring back a sense of morality to America. The presidents during the Vietnam War never claimed any moral high ground, or any divine support. If authorizing torture is the moral high ground of compassionate conservatism in America, heaven help us when they get down and nasty. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/44 "2004-12-22T04:46:34Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Just keep taking your red pills and saying that the only reason people are saying all those bad things is because they’re meanies. (Yeah, the red pill is the “truth” pill, but it should be the other way round) ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/45 "2004-12-22T04:51:50Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I read threads like this and am dismayed by the apparent desire I see to have the US be the bad guys. It seems like a lot of you are really eager that the US be wrong, that Bush be wrong. That we be evil. > > I see no other way to explain the hyperbole and jumping to conclusions. Believe what you want to believe. > > I for one, would like to see the executive order, if it exists before I make any conclusions. > > But then, I don’t hate my country. I am not blinded by that hate or my hate for Bush, or by paranoia. I don’t want us to fail, or to be the bad guys. > > Further, I am more concerned about our soldiers and civilians who are getting their heads chopped off. When I compare that fact to the accusation that we are **allegedly** by executive order, treating detainees like med students, I feel pretty confident that I’m on the right side of this conflict. Have you ever been in the military? No e-6 or e-7 is going to order torture. I know this. Not without orders from above. You say you don’t believe Bush would do it. Bush or one of his minions…what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/46 "2004-12-22T04:53:08Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I read threads like this and am dismayed by the apparent desire I see to have the US be the bad guys We have been the bad guys. It’s a matter of public record. Now the point is to stop being the bad guys, yes? > [@Scylla](#): > > . It seems like a lot of you are really eager that the US be wrong, that Bush be wrong. That we be evil. What if The US does things that are wrong, what if Bush does things that’re, if not evil, certainly not very nice (or just)? And, how would ‘we’ become evil if the US government were to commit some really bad deeds? > [@Scylla](#): > > I see no other way to explain the hyperbole and jumping to conclusions. Believe what you want to believe. If the report is true, would you come to the same ‘hyperbolic’ conclusions? If it’s true and you wouldn’t come to the same ‘hyperbolic’ conclusions, why wouldn’t you? > [@Scylla](#): > > I for one, would like to see the executive order, if it exists before I make any conclusions. Can’t you make the conclusion that **if** it’s true, you will give it your condemnation? > [@Scylla](#): > > But then, I don’t hate my country. Neither do I. I happen to love it fiercely. > [@Scylla](#): > > I am not blinded by that hate or my hate for Bush, or by paranoia. If it is true, it’s not paranoid, now is it? And if it’s true, it automatically demands condemnation, doesn’t it? > [@Scylla](#): > > I don’t want us to fail, or to be the bad guys. And if we had acted like the ‘bad guys’, what would be the right thing to do? Deny it, because you “didn’t want us to be the bad guys.” Or accept it, and try to change it? Just wonderin’ > [@Scylla](#): > > Further, I am more concerned about our soldiers and civilians who are getting their heads chopped off. Good, then you oppose torturing prisoners as it will lead to more of this behavior, right? > [@Scylla](#): > > When I compare that fact to the accusation that we are **allegedly** by executive order, treating detainees like med students, Do I need to pull out the abu graib photos and testimony? I haven’t kept up with the news, but I saw enough to grok the gestalt of what was going on. > [@Scylla](#): > > I feel pretty confident that I’m on the right side of this conflict. So you will put into the permanent record of the Straight Dope “I, **Cylla** will decry, in the strongest possible terms, the person or persons who authorized/commited/knew about such actions and the actions themelves should they be proven to be true.” ? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/47 "2004-12-22T04:56:49Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Bush or one of his minions…what difference does it make? I do think there’s a slight difference. If it was authored by Bush, the directive places blood on his hands. If it was authored by a subordinate, and Bush didn’t have the book thrown at him, then Bush is still guilty of of allowing it to continue. But in my mind, there is a slight difference in the ‘ultimate morality’ of both possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/48 "2004-12-22T04:58:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I do think there’s a slight difference. > > If it was authored by Bush, the directive places blood on his hands. > > If it was authored by a subordinate, and Bush didn’t have the book thrown at him, then Bush is still guilty of of allowing it to continue. > > But in my mind, there is a slight difference in the ‘ultimate morality’ of both possibilities. Seen any berating of Bush minions lately? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/49 "2004-12-22T05:03:52Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Seen any berating of Bush minions lately? Nope, and I’d be more than willing to blame Bush for not acting properly. But the OP in this thread is dependant on the charges of an EO from Bush himself authorizing this shit. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/50 "2004-12-22T05:06:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And if they’re bigoted, the best way to win their hearts and minds is to infuriate them as deeply as possible. That’s the point, though. Why would an Israeli flag “infuriate them as deeply as possible”? If that’s truly the case, the problem is within themselves, not with anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/51 "2004-12-22T05:06:33Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > But then, I don’t hate my country. I am not blinded by that hate or my hate for Bush, or by paranoia. I don’t want us to fail, or to be the bad guys. careful w/that brush. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/52 "2004-12-22T05:10:03Z")
Wherever the problem may lie, it is **still** not wise to exacerbate this situation by hitting problem areas as hard as possible. This is **not** the way to fight the war on terror or win hearts and minds. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/53 "2004-12-22T05:16:41Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > That’s the point, though. Why would an Israeli flag “infuriate them as deeply as possible”? If that’s truly the case, the problem is within themselves, not with anyone else. Damn…that’s amoung the top 10 most stupid things I have seen posted on this board. It shows that you are at the best, a stupid idiot. At the least, the most callous sob on the board. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/54 "2004-12-22T05:28:22Z")
I think you’re hunting a shadow. Who’s to blame are the perps themselves for behaving in a way that anyone with Kindergarten level education knows is wrong. I dunno that blame needs to go any farther up than that. I hate war. For any reason you care to offer, I hate it. We delivered a war package to Iraq that was, for whatever reason, insufficient to ensure the happiness and safety of the good people in the occupied land. I love a good conspiracy as much as the next guy, and it pleases my heart to vilify The Little Facist in The White House, and to say he’s an idiot and that his entire cabinet is incompetent and that I could have done better. But I can’t believe this is the case. One nutjob in the bunch–Oh hell yeah, totally possible. All in cahoots to fleece a third world nation and establish an outpost in the Middle East from which to launch an all out assault on Islam while simultaneously securing vast oil fields? Mmmmmm…mmmmaybe. All incompetent bumblefucks with Bush in charge? Nah. Too many bright people involved–unless you’re willing to go all the way and say that they belong to a secret organization of some kind that orchestrated 9/11 as the kickoff to a decade of waste and horror. That sounds fun, but I’m not ready to go there just yet. I was an MI punk once upon a time. I delivered the best product I could, but Intel is only as good as the source, collector and analyst that handle it, and it gets stale f.a.s.t. Saddam was a nutjob, but a damned tough one and he ran one tight ship. So tight that reliable info on him and his doings was not as easily obtained as misinformation or just plain dead ends. His subjects were terrorized for decades–distrustful of one another as they were of him. Their “liberators” had demonstrated 10 years earlier just how much they could be trusted to protect them from the old regime. And their “liberators” were neither Muslim nor Arab, and that matters. How can you hope to win hearts and minds that don’t see the world the way you do? As an apple for the picking? As a world devoid of God’s presence? GI Joe is not a bad man, just like Habib the Iraqi is not a bad man. But the distrust…I wonder how many Joe’s knew that Saddam was our pet once upon a time? I wonder how many Iraqis knew that! I think the war seemed necessary at the time, based on intelligence which may or may not have been accurate (WMD). I think that once we were installed in a leaderless Iraq it would have been irresponsible to pull out and leave the Iraqis prey to their neighbors. GROSS GENERALIZATION: Arabs will tear each other’s throats out over ancient tribal fueds, but will put all that on hold to fend off an intruder. What would the Persians & Kurds have gotten up to after we left? Mischief of one kind or another. I’ll fault Bush for failing to cultivate alliances pre-9/11 and for refusing to effectively exploit the world’s compassion post-9/11. I’ll fault him for being inflexible, a poor spin doctor, and a poor communicator. But as much as it galls me to admit this, I don’t have the information available to me to say that his personal incompetence alone is what led us to the disaster we now face. I have no answers here, and I’m sorry I jumped into this thread–I’m just an insurance guy–but crimes happen right here at home despite the presence of police. Is it so hard to believe that the humans who would brutalize other humans would only do so if they had a green light from The Prez? Isn’t it more realistic to believe that The Boss said, “Be aggressive, we want to minimize damages caused by insurgencies.” and that that coincided with people just being people–occasionally someone behaves badly. And Bush said and did everything he could in order to get reelected. Being a shit and playing peoples’ emotions is nothing new in politics. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/55 "2004-12-22T05:38:41Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Damn…that’s amoung the top 10 most stupid things I have seen posted on this board. > > It shows that you are at the best, a stupid idiot. > > At the least, the most callous sob on the board. > > Which is it? Answer the question, asshole. What is so fucking fragile about these Arab captives’ psyches that the Israeli flag “infuriates them as deeply as possible”? Maybe it’s because they’re bigots? Now, I’m sure plenty of things in this world infuriate KKK-bigots and anti-gay bigots, but we don’t accomdate them and their beliefs. Why should we make exceptions for anti-Israeli bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/56 "2004-12-22T05:43:41Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Maybe it’s because they’re bigots? > > Now, I’m sure plenty of things in this world infuriate KKK-bigots and anti-gay bigots, but we don’t accomdate them and their beliefs. Why should we make exceptions for anti-Israeli bigotry? The KKK bigots and anti-gay bigots you refer to exist within our culture (US) such as it is. Over the last 500 odd years we’ve come to the conclusion that, while we might hold bigoted beliefs, it’s really not polite to act on them. The Middle East is NOT the US, and it’s a bit small minded to demand that they relenquish their “bigotries” because we in this hemisphere would prefer they do so. Such a demand would in itself be biggoted. No? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/57 "2004-12-22T05:44:08Z")
Why, yes, of course! And if you pose two men in positions implying fellatio, and take photos of them with the object of humiliating them, well, then it’s their fault for being homophobic! You just keep thinking, **Millroyj** , its what you’re good at. And **Scylla** , we talked about this, remember? How you promised never to post again after watching O’Reilly without at least half an hour to detoxify. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/58 "2004-12-22T05:49:04Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Who’s to blame are the perps themselves for behaving in a way that anyone with Kindergarten level education knows is wrong. I dunno that blame needs to go any farther up than that. Well, yes, soldiers who commited acts of barbarism are to be condemned and prosecuted. But, the blame **needs** to go higher if it was ordered at a higher level, or if it was allowed to continue by superior officers. > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I hate war. For any reason you care to offer, I hate it. We delivered a war package to Iraq that was, for whatever reason, insufficient to ensure the happiness and safety of the good people in the occupied land. To a degree you’re right, the reason doesn’t matter, the propaganda value for our enemies is the same. However, why shouldn’t we hold our politicians feet to the fire, especially when they wage war? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I love a good conspiracy as much as the next guy, and it pleases my heart to vilify The Little Facist in The White House, and to say he’s an idiot and that his entire cabinet is incompetent and that I could have done better. But I can’t believe this is the case. **If it turns out that Bush authored the EO** , can he be legitimately ‘vilified?’ > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > One nutjob in the bunch–Oh hell yeah, totally possible. One nutjob who wasn’t noticed? Oh hell, no. > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > All incompetent bumblefucks with Bush in charge? Nah. Too many bright people involved–unless you’re willing to go all the way and say that they belong to a secret organization of some kind that orchestrated 9/11 as the kickoff to a decade of waste and horror. That sounds fun, but I’m not ready to go there just yet. But if they’re so competent and capable, how the fuck did this happen? If they intended this consequence they are vile, if the couldn’t forsee it they are incompetent. Yes? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > How can you hope to win hearts and minds that don’t see the world the way you do? By helping them to increase their standard of living. By providing for education. By ceasing to act in an imperealistic fashion. People seeing the world differently is allowable divergence in ‘hearts and minds’. People seeing the world differently and therefore wanting to murder americans is not. > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > GI Joe is not a bad man, just like Habib the Iraqi is not a bad man. But the distrust…I wonder how many Joe’s knew that Saddam was our pet once upon a time? I wonder how many Iraqis knew that! I don’t understand the point of this… > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I think the war seemed necessary at the time, based on intelligence which may or may not have been accurate (WMD). The intel was cherrypicked. And that alone makes the whole procedure suspect. > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I think that once we were installed in a leaderless Iraq it would have been irresponsible to pull out and leave the Iraqis prey to their neighbors. Maybe then it would have been more responsible to proceed with full UN backing and a multinational unit of peace keeping forces? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > GROSS GENERALIZATION: Arabs will tear each other’s throats out over ancient tribal fueds, but will put all that on hold to fend off an intruder. What would the Persians & Kurds have gotten up to after we left? Mischief of one kind or another. If it’s a gross generalization, and thus of dubious truth value/utility, why use it? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I’ll fault Bush for failing to cultivate alliances pre-9/11 and for refusing to effectively exploit the world’s compassion post-9/11. I’ll fault him for being inflexible, a poor spin doctor, and a poor communicator. But as much as it galls me to admit this, I don’t have the information available to me to say that his personal incompetence alone is what led us to the disaster we now face. Fair enough, then, what led to it? How? Who knew what, what standards should they be held to, and what can we do about it? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I have no answers here, and I’m sorry I jumped into this thread–I’m just an insurance guy–but crimes happen right here at home despite the presence of police. Don’t be sorry for jumping into the thread, feel free to participate. And, yes, crimes happen right here at home, but it’s not the police commiting them, and when it is, the justice system is supposed to come down on them like a ton of briks. > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Is it so hard to believe that the humans who would brutalize other humans would only do so if they had a green light from The Prez? But, wouldn’t that make it the president’s fault for giving a green light? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Isn’t it more realistic to believe that The Boss said, “Be aggressive, we want to minimize damages caused by insurgencies.” and that that coincided with people just being people–occasionally someone behaves badly. This seems to have been a lot of people behaving badly for quite some time. And even if this was a directive from the boss stating that we had to be more agressive, isn’t **someone** responsible for **how** that order is carried out? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > And Bush said and did everything he could in order to get reelected. Being a shit and playing peoples’ emotions is nothing new in politics. Nope, certainly isn’t. But if Bush did what it seems he may have? Doesn’t that elevate his crimes beyond mere demagogery? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/59 "2004-12-22T06:01:47Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > The KKK bigots and anti-gay bigots you refer to exist within our culture (US) such as it is. Over the last 500 odd years we’ve come to the conclusion that, while we might hold bigoted beliefs, it’s really not polite to act on them. > > The Middle East is NOT the US, and it’s a bit small minded to demand that they relenquish their “bigotries” because we in this hemisphere would prefer they do so. Such a demand would in itself be biggoted. No? Islamists hate Israel, Jews, America, and Americans. Why do you give them a pass on that? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/60 "2004-12-22T06:05:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why, yes, of course! And if you pose two men in positions implying fellatio, and take photos of them with the object of humiliating them, well, then it’s their fault for being homophobic! What’s humiliating about two men in positions of fellatio? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078.md?page=4)