# I pit president Bush; with blood on his hands. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078 "2004-12-22T00:08:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/61 "2004-12-22T06:07:08Z")
Awwwww, idn’t that _cute!_ The way he bats the big, brown innocent Bambi eyes! Adorable! ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/62 "2004-12-22T06:10:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Awwwww, idn’t that _cute!_ The way he bats the big, brown innocent Bambi eyes! Adorable! No, really, please tell us what is humiliating about two men engaged in fellatio? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/63 "2004-12-22T07:23:47Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > That’s the point, though. Why would an Israeli flag “infuriate them as deeply as possible”? Because they’re proud of their own identity? I imagine it’s roughly analogous to taking an American soldier prisoner, giving him a chamberpot to take care of bodily functions, and then either (a) tossing a crucifix into it, or (b) dumping the contents on an American flag. Still ready to argue “It’s just a symbol”? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/64 "2004-12-22T07:34:06Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > What’s humiliating about two men in positions of fellatio? The black midget in cowboy chaps forced to videotape it? ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/65 "2004-12-22T11:33:54Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Islamists hate Israel, Jews, America, and Americans. Why do you give them a pass on that? So given this, you’d presumably have no problem being paraded around wrapped in, say, an Iraqi flag. What about a French flag? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/66 "2004-12-22T11:37:36Z")
> [@TwoTrouts](#): > > If Rove or Cheney whisper in his ear that this is the right course to pursue in order to preserve American dominance, then Bush will go along, but I doubt that there will be any evidence of an actual order to pursue such a strategy. Maybe I am just overly naive! I think you are (naive), but not in the sense that you believe Bush did not came to the idea all by himself (or even signed such orders himself, which is not a given. If he did he is even more stupid then I think possible). To make things simple: Bush thinks God is on his side, he communicates with God. Hence in his own eyes he can do no wrong. God called him to be Ptresident of the USA in these difficult times. Of course God must have given him the blessing of such ideal advisers and cooperatives to Erradicate Evil = to get these Muslim brownies in the ME to become US clones, by preference with the prospect of introducing also “freedom of religion” to bring the (Fallwell) 10/40 window in action (did you ever take a look at their website?) and Save The Misguided Muslim Souls. While doing all this Good, God’s Chosen Nation can get its claws on all that oil and gaz in the region, because God Blesses the USA. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/67 "2004-12-22T11:45:45Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Ahh…so you are or one thosde responsible for send America down the tubes. I’m afraid that would be you and other leftists who realize that, as you put it, “The majority of Americans don’t care. They just don’t care. They are getting their tax cuts. That’s what they care about.” You realize this and yet you still place yourselves and your party squarely in opposition to them. How stupid is that? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/68 "2004-12-22T11:56:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Do you think Bush and the Republican Party invented this shit? > I find it bizarre that people NOW beging to cry out that this sort of behaviour will make people hate the US. It’s been going on a long time. Why are you just noticing it now? I don’t think that in the past there were among the US citizens no signs at all of disagreement when rumours of such situations circulated. But in the past there was no such easy access to information because even if it came somewhere in the media, the effect of this could not be the same as what it is now. > [@Squink](#): > > What the hell are American prison guards doing with large Israeli flags in the first place? Did they pay for them out of their own pocket, or are Israeli flags part of Uncle Sam’s standard issue Arab torture kit? You misunderstand this completely. It is part of the Winning Hearts and Minds kit. These flags are part of the tools to convince the Arab world once and for all that Israel has never ever anything to do with no matter what the USA plots and plans and executes in the Middle East and that no Mossad agent even knows how to say the word Iraq, let alone ever set foot in Iraq. It is all that simple. You just must come to the genial idea, see? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/69 "2004-12-22T12:42:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’m afraid that would be you and other leftists who realize that, as you put it, “The majority of Americans don’t care. They just don’t care. They are getting their tax cuts. That’s what they care about.” You realize this and yet you still place yourselves and your party squarely in opposition to them. How stupid is that? So, **Liberal** , you are suggesting that standing up for what you believe is right, rather than pandering to the lowest common denominator is “stupid” and therefore makes that person responsible for the country going down the tubes? That’s fucked up, and the more of your posts I read, the more I become convinced that you are a disingenuous asshole with nothing of actual value to add. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/70 "2004-12-22T13:04:40Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Answer the question, asshole. What is so fucking fragile about these Arab captives’ psyches that the Israeli flag “infuriates them as deeply as possible”? Listen you fool, if wrapping them in an Israeli flag has the possibility of pissing them off, then don’t wrap them in a fucking flag! We humiliate them, they attack us, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more, we seek revenge and humilate them, they become more hateful and attack us more,…etc. Have we learned nothing from Israel/Palestine? Somewhere, somehow, we have to break the cycle. Someone has to say, “you know what? Maybe we shouldn’t wrap this guy in a flag that fills him with bloodrage, maybe we shouldn’t humiliate this guy, just lock him up and leave him alone”. Is that so fucking hard? Maybe the day that happens, guys upon repatriation won’t harbor a _white hot burning desire_ to kill any American in sight. Perhaps they’ll only hate us a little, and sad to say that would be a good start. Our current actions are only creating more terrorists, we need to change them. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/71 "2004-12-22T13:07:31Z")
I also agree that most Americans simply don’t give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/72 "2004-12-22T14:14:44Z")
**FinnAgain** , to do this properly we need a corner both in a pub, a couple pints of Guinness, some purloined Top Secret documents and about 4 to 6 hours. In a nutshell my position is that the administration was on edge because the hunt for Bin Laden wasn’t becoming the merry fox-hunt we had anticipated, and attention was diverted to a different, very legitemate problem. A series of miscalculations (the winnability of hearts and minds, the swiftness of insurgents setting up shop in a leaderless Iraq, other stuff we’ve never even heard about) has turned this venture into a great big bloody mess. If you want to move the blame upwards, then ultimately you have to stop at the people who put our leadership in power. Bush didn’t steal the election in 2000, he only stole Florida. A bunch of other states fielded a majority vote asking him to take ofice. Tou and I are ultimately responsible for not doing a better job at getting a competetive Democrat on stage for the last two elections. The people of Iraq are to blame for not accepting the fact that families and homes have to be sacrificed in order to rise up and overthrow a ruthless dictator–The Rusians did it, the French did it, why not the Iraqis? God Himself his to be blamed for not making his message more clear: Is the East Coast of the Mediterranean a gift to the jews or isn’t it? Is Jesus the messiah and son of God or isn’t he? Did Mohammed bring God’s Law version 7.4 to the world or didn’t he? Did Joseph Smith deliver a refreshed gospel to the world or didn’t he? Shalt thou kill or not? Humans have been in charge here. Humans with self interests, and humans with a sense of duty. Humans with conflicting moral and cultural values. You suggest that we could have won hearts and minds “\*\*y helping them to increase their standard of living. By providing for education. By ceasing to act in an imperealistic fashion.” Arabs / Muslims don’t want The West to give them any of that-our brand of those things. The best of them want us to just go home and leave them to run their own lives–a dictator who doesn’t deprive them of Islam and the right to adher to tribal values is oppressive, but not intolerable. Just like to us a president who annihilates our economy in order to annihilate an impoverished sovreign nation is a drag, but not intolerable to us. Certainly neither side is/was sufficiently inclined to overthrow its own government. Just like with 9/11 we wanted one man to be responsible for an attrocity, you’d like to point the finger at one man for our own behavior. It’s just not that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/73 "2004-12-22T14:30:09Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > What’s humiliating about two men in positions of fellatio? Why nothing, nothing at all. In fact your comment brought to mind an image of you and your president lying together side by side, naked, while you pretend to suck the hot semen out of his rigid man gland. Yumm! If someone took pictures, I’d buy a copy. Hell, you probably would too. Photoshop in a little holly and mistletoe, and it’d make a great **milroyj** family christmas card. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/74 "2004-12-22T14:30:25Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Have you ever been in the military? > > No e-6 or e-7 is going to order torture. > > I know this. > > Not without orders from above. > > You say you don’t believe Bush would do it. > > Bush or one of his minions…what difference does it make? Well, my time in the military demonstrated to me that some soldiers or sailors will maltreat prisoners no matter what the orders are from above. Are you aware, **Reeder** , of one of the charged Abu Ghraib guards, actually the ringleader of the bunch, Charles Graner? Do you know he was an Army Specialist, an E5? Do you know that in civilian life he was a prison guard in Fayette County and Greene County, Pennsylvania? Are you aware that he had a reputation there for being a particularly abusive guard? Or that he once spiked a coworker’s coffee with Mace, causing that man to become violently ill? I’m glad you have such faith in our E5’s and E6’s, but this doesn’t reflect any degree of reality to me. > **[Charles Graner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Graner)** > > Global War on Terrorism > Charles A. Graner Jr. (born 1968) is an American convicted war criminal and former member of the U.S. Army reserve who was convicted of prisoner abuse in connection with the 2003–2004 Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal. Graner, with other soldiers from his unit, the 372nd Military Police Company, were accused of allowing and inflicting sexual, physical, and psychological abuse on Iraqi prisoners of war in Abu Ghraib prison, a notorious prison in Baghdad during the United S... [http://www.thejerichomovement.com/5-11-04pauadp.html](http://www.thejerichomovement.com/5-11-04pauadp.html) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/75 "2004-12-22T14:43:48Z")
This blood is on all of our hands, not just Bush’s. We had the warning signs from Abu Gharib early in the year. It could have and should have been a major campaign issue. The voters just did not care. By succumbing to the climate of perpetual victimization and justifying every atrocity that Americans commit based on the attacks of 9/11, all of America shares in the shame and the guilt. Democrats should be leading the indignant reaction- where are they? Republicans should be pledging to get to the bottom of this- where are they? There should be protests in the streets- where are they? Although I have no problem believing that Bush authorized the use of torture, I have doubts that a smoking gun executive order exists. Even if Bush were stupid enough to sign such a memo, his handlers would have the sense to realize that this is not something that you put down on paper and leave as evidence. I’m more inclined to believe that the authorization came orally in a secire. bug proof location. If there is a smoking gun memo, then Bush deserves to take his medicine. But so do the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/76 "2004-12-22T14:45:57Z")
Of ocurse, Americans don’t care–Americans are oblivious to everything that exists outside reality television. Hell, if they have no problems with killing innocent Iraqi [civilians](http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28&page=1), including [children](http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album28&id=boy_with_flag), they sure aren’t going to wince when they hear about psychological and physical torture of people they consider to be unworthy of humane treatment anyway. Sure, I agree that we need to defeat the Islamists, but turning Iraq into a charnel house where everyone, insurgent and civilian alike, serves as a target for our ammo, isn’t the way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/77 "2004-12-22T15:05:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This blood is on all of our hands, not just Bush’s. We had the warning signs from Abu Gharib early in the year. It could have and should have been a major campaign issue. The voters just did not care. Don’t give me that shit, I didn’t vote for him. Blame the people who voted for Bush, giving his action of the past 4 years a big 'ol stamp of approval. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/78 "2004-12-22T15:05:17Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This blood is on all of our hands, not just Bush’s. We had the warning signs from Abu Gharib early in the year. It could have and should have been a major campaign issue. The voters just did not care. Don’t give me that shit, I didn’t vote for him. Blame the people who voted for Bush, giving his actions of the past 4 years a big 'ol stamp of approval. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/79 "2004-12-22T15:16:40Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Don’t give me that shit, I didn’t vote for him. Blame the people who voted for Bush, giving his actions of the past 4 years a big 'ol stamp of approval. Neither did I. But why wasn’t the known abuses taking place a campaign issue? Why did we not hold Bush accountable when we had the chance? In three debates, it was not even mentioned once. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078/80 "2004-12-22T15:30:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Neither did I. But why wasn’t the known abuses taking place a campaign issue? Why did we not hold Bush accountable when we had the chance? In three debates, it was not even mentioned once. Not why didn’t _we_, why didn’t _Kerry_? Because he just as much of an asshat as Bush. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-president-bush-with-blood-on-his-hands/281078.md?page=5)