# I pit pro-disease advocates **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110 "2011-12-14T00:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/41 "2011-12-15T01:27:15Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > In case that’s last sentence confuses people, I am no way calling **Kolga** Jenny McCarthy. > > I just feel like saying “And FUCK YOU, Jenny McCarthy!” whenever undervaccination comes up. I’m with you. Let’s get t-shirts made. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/42 "2011-12-15T01:40:11Z")
I got you, **Kolga** , I was just rambling a bit. Still am: I think it is still important to note that the anti-vaccine assholes are almost always upper middle class whites. I’m not sure education or facts can fix the problem. The people that refuse to vaccinate have somehow learned just enough and amassed just enough wealth that they think they can ignore doctors’ advice. They are not “stupid” in the classic sense. They think they “know better” and will refuse to be convinced otherwise. I am reminded of conspiracy theorists when I think of them. ETA: ermm… crap. You keep Ninjaing me Kolga! It’s cool, though. You print up those T-shirts and I’ll buy one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/43 "2011-12-15T01:51:40Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I got you, **Kolga** , I was just rambling a bit. Still am: > > I think it is still important to note that the anti-vaccine assholes are almost always upper middle class whites. I’m not sure education or facts can fix the problem. The people that refuse to vaccinate have somehow learned just enough and amassed just enough wealth that they think they can ignore doctors’ advice. They are not “stupid” in the classic sense. They think they “know better” and will refuse to be convinced otherwise. I am reminded of conspiracy theorists when I think of them. > > ETA: ermm.. crap. You keep Ninjaing me Kolga! It’s cool, though. You print up those T-shirts and I’ll buy one. 🙂 They ARE conspiracy theorists. A lot of them buy into the idea of a multi-decade conspiracy between Big Pharma, the CDC, the WHO, and the government to force our children to receive vaccines for the sole purpose of making children sick. Then, the children will have to be treated by more medicines from Big Pharma. They are every bit as cracked as the moon hoaxer people. I was thinking a design that looked like the FUTK shirts the Dixie Chicks wore during their feud with Toby Keith. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/44 "2011-12-15T01:56:07Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > You obviously haven’t spent enough time swimming in the cesspool of filth that is the anti-vaccine movement. They continuously spout off about the beauties of “natural immunity,” which is the pinnacle of good health them. Not all anti-vaccine nutbags are like this, but there is a significant percentage who do want their children, and yours, to suffer disease as a giant raised middle finger to Big Pharma. You’re probably right - I read and post to the forums that don’t delete posts or ban people that disagree with the forum owner, and the anti-vax forums are notorious for doing things like that (see comment 137 on this thread [http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/quoth\_mark\_not\_a\_doctor\_not\_a\_scientist.php](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/quoth_mark_not_a_doctor_not_a_scientist.php) where JB Handley boasts that he deletes posts on the ‘Age of Autism’ site to “protect parents” (apparently protecting them from hearing anything positive about vaccines). ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/45 "2011-12-15T02:00:04Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > It does not. Depending on your locality, there are many ways for parents to avoid having their children vaccinated. Chances are good that your kid’s school is below herd immunity vaccination levels, given the dropping rates of immunizations. > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I got you, **Kolga** , I was just rambling a bit. Still am: > > I think it is still important to note that the anti-vaccine assholes are almost always upper middle class whites. I’m not sure education or facts can fix the problem. The people that refuse to vaccinate have somehow learned just enough and amassed just enough wealth that they think they can ignore doctors’ advice. They are not “stupid” in the classic sense. They think they “know better” and will refuse to be convinced otherwise. I am reminded of conspiracy theorists when I think of them. > > ETA: ermm.. crap. You keep Ninjaing me Kolga! It’s cool, though. You print up those T-shirts and I’ll buy one. 🙂 Around here, just about any excuse seems to be valid if parents don’t want to vaccinate. Basically, it seems that all a parent has to do is say “I don’t like that law”: “Since 1972, Texas has allowed medical and religious exemptions from immunizations required for school entry. In 2003, the Texas Legislature passed a provision allowing exemptions from immunizations for reasons of conscience. To obtain a conscientious exemption, including religious exemption, the parent or guardian must submit a written request to the Department of State Health Services (DSHS) to obtain an affidavit form.” [Surveys | Texas DSHS](http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/immunize/coverage/conscientious.shtm) Resistance to vaccination doesn’t seem to be limited to the upper class here, either. I’ve seen plenty of folks who are just barely scraping by, who insist that the Medical Establishment has an ulterior motive for pushing vaccination. Frankly, I don’t think that exemptions should be granted, except for valid medical reasons. I don’t care whether someone thinks that their precious snowflake might become even more special if s/he gets vaccinated. Any person who isn’t properly vaccinated is a danger to the people who are actually most at risk. And, by the way, I’m up to date on all my shots. Well, not the rabies shot, but I keep up to date on tetanus and pneumonia and flu shots. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/46 "2011-12-15T02:04:54Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > You’re probably right - I read and post to the forums that don’t delete posts or ban people that disagree with the forum owner, and the anti-vax forums are notorious for doing things like that (see comment 137 on this thread [http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/quoth\_mark\_not\_a\_doctor\_not\_a\_scientist.php](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/quoth_mark_not_a_doctor_not_a_scientist.php) where JB Handley boasts that he deletes posts on the ‘Age of Autism’ site to “protect parents” (apparently protecting them from hearing anything positive about vaccines). I love Orac. LOVE him. He, and Paul Offit, are true heroes. They both get threats from the anti-vaxxers a lot. Offit has stated that he doesn’t go on book tours for his books because of the threats. Mothering dot commune is another forum that disallows pro-vaccine information. A number of posters on this board have been banned from that site for attempting to discuss the scientific data regarding the safety and efficacy of vaccines. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Around here, just about any excuse seems to be valid if parents don’t want to vaccinate. Basically, it seems that all a parent has to do is say “I don’t like that law”: “Since 1972, Texas has allowed medical and religious exemptions from immunizations required for school entry. In 2003, the Texas Legislature passed a provision allowing exemptions from immunizations for reasons of conscience. To obtain a conscientious exemption, including religious exemption, the parent or guardian must submit a written request to the Department of State Health Services (DSHS) to obtain an affidavit form.” [Surveys | Texas DSHS](http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/immunize/coverage/conscientious.shtm) > > Frankly, I don’t think that exemptions should be granted, except for valid medical reasons. I don’t care whether someone thinks that their precious snowflake might become even more special if s/he gets vaccinated. Any person who isn’t properly vaccinated is a danger to the people who are actually most at risk. A report just came out that Colorado is 2nd in the nation in unvaccinated children, and the report specifically stated that parents who don’t vaccinate cite the discredited Wakefield study as a reason. Also, Colorado is a state in which it’s VERY easy to get a parental exemption. I think that non-vaccinated children should have to wear surgical masks in school. But I’m not making the rules. I think that FU Jenny McCarthy t-shirt needs a companion that says “Fuck You Andrew Wakefield.” ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/47 "2011-12-15T02:31:39Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > . . . so please get regular booster shots. I took it as another sign that I’d picked the right doctor to switch to when she made sure that I didn’t leave the intake appointment before I got one. My tetanus was up to date, but the old guy (in several senses of the word) didn’t have whooping cough on his radar at all. > [@markdash](#): > > Listen, guys, don’t shoot the Messenger. > > On second thought, go right ahead. Maybe with a trank dart full of virus. Hypothetically, of course. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/48 "2011-12-15T02:37:51Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Maybe with a trank dart full of virus. Hypothetically, of course. I think you misspelled “hypodermically”. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/49 "2011-12-15T03:24:39Z")
Sometimes living in the boonies of the Caribbean has its advantages: vaccination is universal and mandatory for all kids. Only legitimate medical exceptions, and I wonder how those kids get into school. Schools are required to request an up-to-date vaccination card before kids are enrolled. Knowing people that within parent’s living memory suffered from Polio does that. Plus nobody knows who Jenny McWhatHerFace is. ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/50 "2011-12-15T05:06:41Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > The article states the new vaccine only lasts maybe 3-4 years, so please get regular booster shots. Verily and indeed. My mother has a great immunologist who’s given the family a ton of information. Booster shots, flu shots, precautions to take both at home and in public, the works. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/51 "2011-12-15T05:09:21Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Unfortunately, you are right. When enough kids start to die of vaccine-preventable diseases, the media MIGHT start covering that enough to convince people that vaccines are a public health good. Thankfully, we do have a vast repository of data supporting the idea that absent vaccination, the human immune system just isn’t good enough and when left alone does lead to large outbreaks of deadly diseases and widespread child mortality. It’s called FUCKING HISTORY. See also: Third world, the. ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/52 "2011-12-15T05:17:11Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Fuck you, Jenny McCarthy. To paraphrase a great American, if I ever met Jenny McCarthy in person, I’d probably never stop slapping her. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/53 "2011-12-15T05:19:37Z")
Last I checked, there was no religious exemption for requiring that children wear seat belts. Vaccinations should be equally mandated. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/54 "2011-12-15T05:31:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Thankfully, we do have a vast repository of data supporting the idea that absent vaccination, the human immune system just isn’t good enough and when left alone does lead to large outbreaks of deadly diseases and widespread child mortality. It’s called FUCKING HISTORY. See also: Third world, the. History doesn’t apply to 21st-century rich white Americans, apparently. Not until their own children start dying. They claim that improved hygiene and better nutrition are all that are necessary to survive vaccine-preventable diseases. I’ve read anti-vaccine propaganda that literally states that the polio vaccine was completely unnecessary because better hygiene is what REALLY wiped polio out in American society. There is truly no limit to the anti-vax, pro-disease idiocy. > [@Pixiesnix](#): > > To paraphrase a great American, if I ever met Jenny McCarthy in person, I’d probably never stop slapping her. I love that. That’ll go on a t-shirt, too. > [@neuroman](#): > > Last I checked, there was no religious exemption for requiring that children wear seat belts. Vaccinations should be equally mandated. From your mouth to Og’s ear. There are some things that are too damn important to allow for exemptions unless there is truly a medical issue that prevents immunization. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/55 "2011-12-15T05:39:10Z")
The problem is that state officials have been letting people get away with vaccine exemptions. > [@](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/12/opinion/12thu4.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/12/opinion/12thu4.html) > > Now the new article by researchers at Johns Hopkins University, the University of Florida and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has taken a broad look at the rates of whooping cough in the 48 states that allow people to be exempted from required shots for various nonmedical reasons. All 48 of the states allow exemptions based on religious objections, but 19 of them also allow exemptions based on philosophical or other personal beliefs. I’m sort of wary of mandatory vaccines on one hand. On the other my personal beliefs are that if you attempt to infect me or my kids with a vaccine preventable disease because you did not vaccinate you are a fucking idiot. I should have the right to sue you and so should everyone else you infect. A single idiot’s decision not to vaccinate his kid cost officials over $175,000: > [@](#): > > [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/4/747.full](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/4/747.full) > > County and state personnel reported spending 1745 person-hours on investigation and containment efforts, producing a public-sector cost of $124 517, or $10 376 per case. Direct medical charges for the case-patients and exposed infants totaled $16 163 ($14 458 for the hospitalized infant), or $1347 per case. Quarantined families reported average direct and indirect costs of $775 per quarantined child. Total outbreak costs were $176 980 (Table 1). I think the parents in question should have been fined the entire amount with an extra 100k thrown in for sheer stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/56 "2011-12-15T05:51:40Z")
> [@Pixiesnix](#): > > To paraphrase a great American, if I ever met Jenny McCarthy in person, I’d probably never stop slapping her. Penn & Teller did a wonderful episode on their _Bullshit_ series about anti-vaccination loons (and that’s exactly what those bastards are). Of course, they highlighted that nut-job. McCarthy is: [ol][li][probably wrong about her own son’s disease](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_McCarthy#Activism_and_autism_controversy)[/li][li]simply an attention whore[/li][li]a bitch[/ol][/li] Seriously, out of all the WONJCTs, I can think of none other than the anti-vaccineers who actually deserve the “Buzz Aldrin” treatment. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/57 "2011-12-15T05:56:42Z")
McCarthy actually came out in favor of botox. Because “toxins” are fine when injected into your face but suck when used to help prevent disease. She’s just a great big pile of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/58 "2011-12-15T06:21:11Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > McCarthy actually came out in favor of botox. Because “toxins” are fine when injected into your face but suck when used to help prevent disease. She’s just a great big pile of stupid. That’s another t-shirt design: “Jenny McCathy - A Big Pile Of Stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/59 "2011-12-15T06:22:09Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Sometimes, much as Singapore comes off as a totalitarian state, I think they have some things correct, and behave in a consistent and well thought through manner. > > This is one of those times… > > **Compulsory immunisation as preventive measure** That isn’t only in Singapore, it’s in any country with the budget for it. In Spain, medicalized ambulances go to shack areas to ensure that those kids who aren’t being taken to school/the doctor will get their vaccinations. Refusing to vaccinate a child would constitute negligence on the part of the parents; mind you, by the time someone here would come up with such a notion the list of reasons to take the kids away is likely to be phone-book size. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/60 "2011-12-15T15:23:51Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > History doesn’t apply to 21st-century rich white Americans, apparently. Not until their own children start dying. While I agree that antivaccination foolishness is often manifested by relatively well-off, presumably educated white folks, it is by no means limited to them. False rumor-mongering has limited effectiveness of vaccination campaigns [in east Africa](http://www.path.org/vaccineresources/files/Combatting_Antivac_Rumors_UNICEF.pdf), for example. In South Africa, [a recent measles outbreak](http://ionian-enchantment.blogspot.com/2009/11/anti-vaccination-and-south-africas.html) was blamed on anti-immunization attitudes found among both poor and relatively well-off people. And when African immigrants arrive in the U.S., we have native and imported antivaxers ready to stoke their fears about vaccines - as in the case of [Somalis in Minnesota](http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/04/02/somali-autism-vaccines/) (where measles has rebounded thanks to people like discredited researcher Andrew Wakefield). Historically, it seems that antivaccination attitudes sprouted up first among poor, less educated people. But now we often have a more affluent, Google-educated demographic fanning the flames. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110.md?page=4)