# I pit pro-disease advocates **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110 "2011-12-14T00:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/61 "2011-12-15T16:25:58Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > Ugh, I just saw on Facebook that one of my cousin’s children is recovering from Whooping cough. What the fuck, take them to get their shots stupid bitch. I am so glad that I live on the other side of the country and don’t have to take my daughters to see them very often. > > I guess my family is not as smart as I thought. I realize I’m probably being over optimistic, but did having their child come down with a serious vaccine preventable illness in any way affect their anti-vaccine stance? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/62 "2011-12-15T18:33:22Z")
I’m chiming in for [Roald Dahl](http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715) and Patricia O’Neal. Their daughter Olivia died from measles when she was eight. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/63 "2011-12-15T19:03:22Z")
What I find interesting/odd about anti-vaxxers, is that they tend to come in two varieties. The first is the one popularized by Jenny McCarthy…typically left-leaning, and very likely to engage in life style choices like vegetarianism, home schooling, environmentalism, “alternative medicine”, and could fall into the stereotypical “new age hippy” crowd, to over-generalize. They seem to avoid vaccinations out of a fear that they aren’t ‘natural,’ full of toxins, etc… The other group tends to be very right-wing, anti-government, etc… and seem to refuse vaccinations more out of spite and an attitude of “damn government can’t tell ME what to do with my kids!” Though it does seem both of them buy into the “conspiracy theory” idea that vaccines/Big Pharma are just out to make you sick and get your money. The one thing the extreme sides agree on! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/64 "2011-12-15T19:39:17Z")
I’ve been advocating a very simple solution to the anti-vax nuttery: Allow health insurance companies to disallow coverage for vaccine-preventable conditions in the absence of a valid and documented medical exemption. No other exemptions allowed. Let some kid come down with whooping cough or measles because they weren’t vaccinated and have to spend a week in the hospital. The parents are now on the hook for the multi-tens or hundreds of thousand dollars hospital bill. I think in very short order parents will vaccinate their children. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/65 "2011-12-15T20:02:21Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > I’ve been advocating a very simple solution to the anti-vax nuttery: > > Allow health insurance companies to disallow coverage for vaccine-preventable conditions in the absence of a valid and documented medical exemption. No other exemptions allowed. > > Let some kid come down with whooping cough or measles because they weren’t vaccinated and have to spend a week in the hospital. The parents are now on the hook for the multi-tens or hundreds of thousand dollars hospital bill. > > I think in very short order parents will vaccinate their children. This is simple and logical and appeals to my sense of justice for the parents. Of course, a kid who has to go through this is gonna be miserable, but that kid has sucky parents. At any rate, because this idea is logical, I doubt that it would ever be implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/66 "2011-12-15T21:01:53Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > I’ve been advocating a very simple solution to the anti-vax nuttery: > > Allow health insurance companies to disallow coverage for vaccine-preventable conditions in the absence of a valid and documented medical exemption. No other exemptions allowed. > > Let some kid come down with whooping cough or measles because they weren’t vaccinated and have to spend a week in the hospital. The parents are now on the hook for the multi-tens or hundreds of thousand dollars hospital bill. > > I think in very short order parents will vaccinate their children. While my initial reaction was, “fuck yea,” on reconsideration I have some concerns about this. Parents on the hook for medical or hospital bills may attempt to avoid the bills until it’s too late to save the child or prevent life-long damage. I don’t think children should be punished for the stupidity of their parents. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/67 "2011-12-15T21:46:15Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > While my initial reaction was, “fuck yea,” on reconsideration I have some concerns about this. Parents on the hook for medical or hospital bills may attempt to avoid the bills until it’s too late to save the child or prevent life-long damage. **I don’t think children should be punished for the stupidity of their parents.** The kids are already being punished for the stupidity of their parents. If common sense won’t convince these crazy morons, maybe hitting them in the pocket will. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/68 "2011-12-15T21:56:38Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > The kids are already being punished for the stupidity of their parents. If common sense won’t convince these crazy morons, maybe hitting them in the pocket will. I think a combined approach. Make exemptions much tougher to get, and make parents more financially liable. And label all the anti-vaccine propagandists with big red Ms. Tattooed to their foreheads. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/69 "2011-12-16T07:08:24Z")
I would just like to say that I am totally in support of the Spanish flu. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’m chiming in for [Roald Dahl](http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715) and Patricia O’Neal. Their daughter Olivia died from measles when she was eight. I had a great-uncle who died of whooping cough when he was only three. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/70 "2011-12-16T14:17:03Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’m chiming in for [Roald Dahl](http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715) and Patricia O’Neal. Their daughter Olivia died from measles when she was eight. I have an eight year old daughter. After reading that I hugged her just a little longer this morning. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/71 "2011-12-17T03:21:16Z")
I recently sandblasted a friend on Facebook for linking to an anti-vax site. She linked to an article that said the Amish have no incidence of autism, because they don’t vaccinate their children. There was so much stupid in that article, I couldn’t beat it. It was like fighting a hydra made of pure, weapons grade, unstable isotope STupid. Every citation, every pointed-out flaw, just brought her and her like-minded friends that much closer to the criticality of abandoning logic all together. Seriously, the last comment was along the lines of “pertussis isn’t deadly, it’s the complications which are deadly. That’s why it’s okay not to vaccinate your child.” The Augean Stables has nothing on this pile of shit. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/72 "2011-12-17T16:54:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Penn & Teller did a wonderful episode on their _Bullshit_ series about anti-vaccination loons (and that’s exactly what those bastards are). Of course, they highlighted that nut-job. McCarthy is: > [ol][li][probably wrong about her own son’s disease](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_McCarthy#Activism_and_autism_controversy)[/li][li]simply an attention whore[/li][li]a bitch[/ol][/li] > Seriously, out of all the WONJCTs, I can think of none other than the anti-vaccineers who actually deserve the “Buzz Aldrin” treatment. But come on, we’d still hit it. Right?.. Right… right? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/73 "2011-12-17T21:02:01Z")
This very day, 12/17/11 is my grandmother’s 107th birthday. As a child she lost two siblings, one to diptheria and the other, as a new born, to unknown causes of my great-grandmother being pregnant and having German measles at the same time. Grandma has always thought modern medical advances are literally Heaven sent. She was a cancer survivor at the age of 91! I don’t think she’s aware of the anti-vaccination crowd but I suspect she’d be appalled. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/74 "2011-12-18T00:03:17Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > I recently sandblasted a friend on Facebook for linking to an anti-vax site. She linked to an article that said the Amish have no incidence of autism, because they don’t vaccinate their children. There was so much stupid in that article, I couldn’t beat it. It was like fighting a hydra made of pure, weapons grade, unstable isotope STupid. Every citation, every pointed-out flaw, just brought her and her like-minded friends that much closer to the criticality of abandoning logic all together. Seriously, the last comment was along the lines of “pertussis isn’t deadly, it’s the complications which are deadly. That’s why it’s okay not to vaccinate your child.” > > The Augean Stables has nothing on this pile of shit. This is a lie. The Amish absolutely do vaccinate their children (not to the levels that non-Amish, but they still do). They absolutely do experience autism in their communities. Dan Olmstead, I believe, is the anti-vax lunatic who started and perpetuates this myth. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/75 "2011-12-18T00:50:03Z")
You know that. I know that. The Amish know that. I’m betting the entire staff of the CDC knows that. Would it budge my otherwise intelligent and wise friend and her cronies from their utter lack of sense? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/76 "2011-12-18T04:40:32Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > You know that. I know that. The Amish know that. I’m betting the entire staff of the CDC knows that. > > Would it budge my otherwise intelligent and wise friend and her cronies from their utter lack of sense? Nope. Good for you. The Amish are not my favorite people on this issue. Many of them avoid several vaccines on the standard vaccine schedule. As a result they’ve had multiple outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases in their communities including [polio](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/08/national/08polio.html?pagewanted=all) and [HiB](http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-11-28/news/30453203_1_older-vaccines-mary-selecky-school-shots/2). I hope you don’t live anywhere near those facebook loons. I wouldn’t want anything to happen to your darling baby. One of my neighbors sent me a Jenny McCarthy link and talked about “toxins” in the flu vaccine. I smile and keep the baby as far away from her as I dare. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/77 "2011-12-18T12:55:43Z")
What’s fascinating about this whole vaccination debacle (cerebrally-speaking) is that according to game theory, in order to maximize one’s best possible outcome, one should \*not \*vaccinate their kids, and everyone else \*should \*vaccinate theirs. I think the application of this is (at least partially) why there are so many anti-vaxers out there. I imagine the thought process is something like, “\*I know that most people vaccinate their kids. But vaccines come with risk \*[at ridiculously low percentages, which people are notoriously poor at assessing]. _In order to avoid that risk, I’m not going to vaccinate my kid. If my kid isn’t vaccinated and everybody else’s kids are, then it doesn’t matter anyway_.” But the extreme case (nobody vaccinates) would result in a shitload more deaths from very-preventable diseases. I have a feeling if a majority of people became anti-vax, a lot of the anti-vaxers would change their stance. Especially if their friend’s/family member’s child died from something like measles, mumps, or rubella. There’s an interesting (if preachy [and debatably hackneyed]) [_Law & Order: SVU_](http://allthingslawandorder.blogspot.com/2009/04/law-order-selfish-recap-review.html) episode about this. An antivaxer didn’t vaccinate her son, he caught measles, and he infected an unrelated baby in the park (who was too young to have received her MMR yet) by proximity. The baby died and the antivaxer was charged with… something (reckless endangerment? manslaugher? I don’t remember). She was found not-guilty, since there are no mandated vaccinations unless you want your kid to attend public school (and her kid was younger than kindergarten-age). ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/78 "2011-12-18T13:17:33Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Seriously, out of all the WONJCTs, I can think of none other than the anti-vaccineers who actually deserve the “Buzz Aldrin” treatment. What’s the Buzz Aldrin treatment? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/79 "2011-12-18T14:07:08Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > What’s the Buzz Aldrin treatment? Unkown but [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_Aldrin) suggests: > [@](#): > > On September 9, 2002, filmmaker Bart Sibrel, a proponent of the Apollo moon landing hoax theory, confronted Aldrin and his stepdaughter outside a Beverly Hills, California hotel. Sibrel said “You’re the one who said you walked on the moon, when you didn’t” and called Aldrin “a coward, and a liar, and a thief.”[43] **Aldrin then punched Sibrel in the face.** If so, agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110/80 "2011-12-18T15:54:28Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Unkown but [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_Aldrin) suggests: > > If so, agreed. Checked it out, and I agree!😛 Good grief, that guy packed a punch, especially for his age! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pro-disease-advocates/606110.md?page=5)