# I Pit Quay Walker of the Green Bay Packers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934 "2023-01-09T18:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/101 "2023-01-16T17:40:59Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I want to see you TRY! Throw a Hail Mary, dammit! And then some player gets a career ending injury on a meaningless play. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/102 "2023-01-16T17:49:15Z")
Those are weirdly precise fines. I wonder how it was decided that a late hit penalty was $10,609 rather than just $10,600. There must be some formula somewhere, maybe tied to inflation. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/103 "2023-01-16T17:56:38Z")
Here’s a page with a chart of fines for various infractions, as detailed in the CBA. They all rise 3% every year. > **[NFL Fine Schedule and Appeals Process | NFL Football Operations](https://operations.nfl.com/inside-football-ops/rules-enforcement/accountability-fines-appeals/)** > > See the on-field code of conduct and related fines that the NFL and the NFLPA collectively bargain for all teams — and the players agree to honor — here. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/104 "2023-01-16T18:14:35Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I hate seeing a losing team just take a knee before the end of a half, or worse, a game. > > I want to see you TRY! Throw a Hail Mary, dammit! So when a team is down, say, 17-10, 10 seconds left in the first half, and they have the ball on their own 15 yard line, they should try a Hail Mary? Gonna have to disagree here. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/105 "2023-01-16T18:22:08Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And then some player gets a career ending injury on a meaningless play. If that’s the reason why you’re not trying to win, then that’s a sign that the game is too dangerous, and shouldn’t be played at all. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/106 "2023-01-16T18:24:39Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > So when a team is down, say, 17-10, 10 seconds left in the first half, and they have the ball on their own 15 yard line, they should try a Hail Mary? > > Gonna have to disagree here. I agree with you. A Hail Mary is a low-percentage play to start with, and even lower from deep in your own territory; I wouldn’t be surprised if the odds of something bad happening (an interception, or a strip-sack fumble) are even higher than the odds of a touchdown for the offense. If that play turns into a touchdown for the defense, it wouldn’t be “at least you tried!”, it’d be, “what the hell were you thinking?” Coaches who choose such high-risk plays, when not _absolutely_ necessary, tend to not be coaches for very long. Unorthodoxy is only tolerated in the NFL if it’s consistently successful. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/107 "2023-01-16T18:24:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If that’s the reason why you’re not trying to win, then that’s a sign that the game is too dangerous, and shouldn’t be played at all. Managing injuries is an important part of the game. Teams that ignore that aspect of the game do so at their peril. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/108 "2023-01-16T18:28:32Z")
Nobody has yet griped about the “call a timeout right before a field goal kick” tactic?! Icing the kicker just looks petty. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/109 "2023-01-16T18:31:13Z")
Quay was wrong, he acted like a child, he was punished. It’s a slow sports news cycle so if there is no controversy it has to be manufactured or at least fanned, that’s what bleached teeth tanned hairspray does for a living. The silver lining here is, in summation, a NFL player slapped the hand of a grown map in public and didn’t get to play the rest of a game. Let’s compare that to some past stories of NFL players and the true face of violence. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/110 "2023-01-16T18:33:58Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Quay was wrong, he acted like a child, he was punished. He got ejected then fined. I’m okay with the punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/111 "2023-01-16T18:43:42Z")
Yup, right. It shouldn’t be tolerated and it wasn’t the rookie needs an attitude adjustment. Even the most die hard Packer fans, like me, are asking amongst themselves if Quay is now a liability rather than a asset. Right now his own mother is wondering the house yelling curses at the walls asking the lord why her child thinks a football team would pay $13,841,641 for a player to sit in the showers on game day for 4 years. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/112 "2023-01-16T18:44:31Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Nobody has yet griped about the “call a timeout right before a field goal kick” tactic?! Icing the kicker just looks petty. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/113 "2023-01-16T19:04:48Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Icing the kicker just looks petty. Unless it works, which it rarely does. In fairness, however, ISTM that when a timeout is called very late, the kicker gets a ‘practice kick’ which he may or may not convert. And when he does miss the practice kick, he invariably makes the real kick. Rarely does he make the practice kick and then miss the real kick. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/114 "2023-01-16T20:31:40Z")
There are numbers here, and icing does seem to work, especially past the 33 yard line: > [@](#): > > These trend lines tell an intriguing tale: **icing the kicker starts being effective (meaning, the opposing kicker becomes more likely to miss their attempt) at 33.9 yards** , and becomes increasingly more effective the larger the distance between the ball and the goal posts. At long ranges especially, **the trend suggests that icing the kicker considerably increases the likelihood of that kicker missing the field goal attempt.** > [@](#): > > First off, let’s look at the results that we expected: In non-critical situations, where the game isn’t on the line, kickers are successful 82% of the time and do worse when they’re iced (82% overall success rate for kicks vs. 77% success rate for iced kicks). > > In game-critical situations, kickers have a 76% success rate; meaning, the increased pressure makes them worse overall. But, [as Grantland concluded five years ago](http://grantland.com/features/icing-kicker-work/), _icing actually seems to_ _have no effect on a kicker’s success rate, overall._ > > But, if the distance of the field goal is 34 yards or greater, icing at any point in the game – including critical game-on-the-line situations – _does_ , in fact, make it less likely the kicker will succeed. Not surprisingly, the greater the distance, the higher the odds of a kicker missing. [Mixpanel’s game theory: Does icing the kicker work? - Mixpanel](https://mixpanel.com/blog/nfl-data-icing-the-kicker/#:~:text=77%25%20success%20rate%20for%20iced,pressure%20makes%20them%20worse%20overall). This is from a 2016 article. But the Garland article from 2011 linked to, there, seems to say that it doesn’t work. Wonder what the latest numbers suggest. Here’s a more recent graph of icing in clutch situations: > **[Icing the Kicker: Does it Really Work? | Sharp Football](https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/icing-the-kicker-does-it-really-work/)** > > NFL kickers converted only 64% of game-winning kicks after being iced, suggesting coaches should look at icing kickers when the game is on the line. [![](https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/NFL-Clutch-Field-Goal-Percentages_-Iced-vs.-Not-Iced.png) ](https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/NFL-Clutch-Field-Goal-Percentages_-Iced-vs.-Not-Iced.png) ---
**Author:** ![ByuBilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@ByuBilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ByuBilly)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/115 "2023-01-16T20:57:12Z")
Canadian culture is like right in between theirs and the brits. It’s odd. We get the ooooh boobies baaad (but show them after nine its ok) same with swearing (although its got more “racy” lately as they compete with streaming). Violence is “a-ok” within limits. We’re like “america lite” for sports seriousness. I’d wonder at crowd response. Does a mostly american or canadian crowd make a different level of “ooohhhh or boooo” vs “yay” in regards to the aforementioned plays above. I would actually be interested in finding out. Kinda with Happy\_Lendervedder here , very… well not shocked but definitely appalled that dancing gets more than violence or threats. Really weirded out actually. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/116 "2023-01-16T20:58:19Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Icing the kicker just looks petty. > [@Railer13](#): > > Rarely does he make the practice kick and then miss the real kick. And then there’s the exception. MNF, packers Vikes, in a cold pouring rain. Game tied, Vikes just need a FG to win, seconds on the clock. Time out called, Vikes kicker made the “practice” kick,but missed the second. Game goes into OT, Pack win on the “Improbable Bobble”. What a game! But of course, it also is a big part of the reason 22 years later that coaches still try to ice the kicker. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/117 "2023-01-16T20:59:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > icing does seem to work But coaches only ice the kicker at the very end of a half, when their timeouts will no longer do them any good. Most often, it’s at the end of the game, when the outcome rests entirely on the kickers’ shoulders. So isn’t it likely that it’s actually the additional pressure – and not the icing – that causes percentages to be lower? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/118 "2023-01-16T21:02:12Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > So isn’t it likely that it’s actually the additional pressure – and not the icing – that causes percentages to be lower? That could be. Correlation without causation and all that. It’s a shitty practice regardless of whether “it works.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/119 "2023-01-16T21:03:19Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > It’s a shitty practice regardless of whether “it works.” You’ll get no argument from me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934/120 "2023-01-16T21:04:43Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Most often, it’s at the end of the game, when the outcome rests entirely on the kickers’ shoulders. But isn’t that exactly what is being measured against in that graph? Clutch Field Goals Iced vs Not Iced. I mean, there’s a control there. ETA: OK - I guess the info isn’t quite that specifically teased out: Iced (when they could have) vs Not Iced (when they could have) is not the only numbers there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-quay-walker-of-the-green-bay-packers/977934.md?page=7)