# I pit Richard Dawkins, Victor Davis Hanson and people like them **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 4, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708 "2012-03-04T06:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/21 "2012-03-04T10:09:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yeah and I probably know more about the US Constitution than probably 99 percent of Americans. Still does not make me an expert It doesn’t? You’re in the top one percent of people who know shit about the Constitution and that doesn’t make you an expert? Damn, experting is a tough field to break into. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/22 "2012-03-04T10:48:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Richard Dawkins may be (for all I know) an excellent biological scientist, first rate even, but when he is placed as some sort of expert on religion and mythology and worse, people lap up his every word when he talks because he is a professor? As if that makes him an expert in any area he wishes to give an opinion about. This is just an argument from authority, framed in the negative, and as unconvincing as such arguments usually are. The only relevant question is whether what Dawkins says is wrong. Do you have anything to say about that? If you did, that might be worth something depending on the quality of your arguments. Your OP however, is a waste of electrons. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/23 "2012-03-04T10:55:14Z")
I have no [idea](http://creationmuseum.org/) why an [evolutionary](http://www.discovery.org/) [biologist](http://http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/20/40-of-americans-still-bel_n_799078.html) would need to to become an [advocate](http://www.kansascity.com/2012/01/14/3371383/missouri-bill-would-require-the.html) for [secularism](http://jurist.org/thisday/2011/11/kansas-school-board-approved-intelligent-design-approach-to-evolution.php). ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/24 "2012-03-04T11:30:00Z")
I’ve got an uncle who was a fireman all of his adult employed life. When he retired, he wrote a great book on taxonomy. Jesus was a carpenter by trade, so he has no reason to opine on what God thinks. (If you believe in any of that.) Is the OP insinuating that one’s profession is the only route to being an expert on a subject? Because that would be really dumb if he did. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/25 "2012-03-04T12:03:14Z")
A very poorly thought out pitting. Funnily enough, Dawkins complains about this kind of thing in his book, _The God Delusion_. Why defer to religious figures? What is their expertise exactly? > [@rachelellogram](#): > > Just because you don’t follow a particular religion or believe in the supernatural (I certainly don’t) doesn’t mean theology is an easy or worthless area of study. In fact, if we have any hope to evolve past humanity’s predilection toward religion, it NEEDS to be studied! Without understanding why religion has had a stranglehold on humanity for the vast majority of people for all of recorded history, we have no hope of overcoming it. The thing is, little of that can be understood through theology, which is essentially exercises in apologetics. Most theists aren’t well versed in theology, so an understanding of theological arguments does little to explain the spread of religion. (Which is an interesting question, and not one that should be readily dismissed. I thought the weakest parts of the _The God Delusion_ were where Dawkins tried to this.) Theology is a sub-branch of philosophy, but it’s limited by it’s inherent assumptions. It’s quite fair to be dismissive of theology itself on that basis. However, it’s not fair to dismiss someone’s writings because they are a theologian, that doesn’t prevent them from being well versed in philosophy or ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/26 "2012-03-04T13:08:56Z")
…I don’t trust that Richard Dawkins. I don’t want anyone I know to grow up joining one of those “star cults.” ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/27 "2012-03-04T13:10:19Z")
Dawkins has been writing about religious topics for quite some time- The Blind Watchmaker came out in the mid to late 80’s and he has been involved in many, many secular and Humanist associations for a very long time. I don’t think people “lap up his every word because he’s a Professor” but because he’s been thinking and writing on the topic for 35 years. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/28 "2012-03-04T13:26:06Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > It doesn’t? You’re in the top one percent of people who know shit about the Constitution and that doesn’t make you an expert? Damn, experting is a tough field to break into. Time was, all you had to be was some damn fool from out of town. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/29 "2012-03-04T13:27:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Victor Davis Hanson may be the best classicist author in recent memory. There is no accounting for taste. All the same, this is completely false. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/30 "2012-03-04T13:46:25Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes, I think that Dawkins should stop talking about religion when the fundamentalist religionists stop talking about evolution. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/31 "2012-03-04T14:00:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You don’t have to be an expert on theology to know that religion is stupid, that the arguments for it are stupid and that the people who follow it are doing something stupid. > > Heck, I’m no theologian and I can argue for that well enough. And this is evidence of your mad rhetorical skillz? (I’m not a fan of Dawkins, either, though I heartily concur with the group that the fundamentalists need to get the fuck outta science) ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/32 "2012-03-04T14:01:20Z")
**AK84** , did you read something by Dawkins that you disagreed with, or do you just object to him in some vague, “he’s wrong”, sort of way? I can’t address the other guy you mentioned- Hanson- as I’m not familiar with his writings. A quick Google shows he seems to write on military history, a subject that’s not of much interest to me. What do the two (Dawkins and Hanson) have in common that you mention them together? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/33 "2012-03-04T14:13:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Why do people think that persons who are experts in one field are somehow experts in all other fields? The two below are just for illustration. > > Richard Dawkins may be (for all I know) an excellent biological scientist, first rate even, but when he is placed as some sort of expert on religion and mythology and worse, people lap up his every word when he talks because he is a professor? As if that makes him an expert in any area he wishes to give an opinion about. Ask yourself why it appears to be necessary for a man to have an advanced degree in botany, physics, and an encyclopedic knowledge of anthropology in the Middle East to disprove a guy who once read a story about a spontaneously combustible bush. Then we can quibble over how many things one can be an expert in at one time. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/34 "2012-03-04T15:57:50Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > And this is evidence of your mad rhetorical skillz? > > (I’m not a fan of Dawkins, either, though I heartily concur with the group that the fundamentalists need to get the fuck outta science) It’s evidence for how low the bar is. 😃 The claims of religions aren’t exactly deep or meaningful. You don’t need to be the pope to look at the claims of Catholicism and realize they’re full of shit. You need to be able to reason and evaluate evidence. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/35 "2012-03-04T16:06:59Z")
Prescient PZ Myers rebutted the OP six years ago: [The Courtier’s Reply](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_courtiers_reply.php) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/36 "2012-03-04T16:30:22Z")
If a commentator who is not a theologian grossly misrepresents the tenets of religion, or displays a stunning ignorance of political facts, then the OP would have a point that they should think about sticking with things they know about. I don’t see that problem with Dawkins or Hanson (though I frequently disagree with Hanson). Religion and politics are pretty much sport for everyone anyway and not rocket science. Speaking strictly of science, I see a big problem with scientists who set themselves up as experts in fields outside their area of expertise. The most obvious example of this is Nobel prize winners making asses of themselves (i.e the [“Nobel disease”](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nobel_disease)). Frequently you’ll see promoters of alternative medicine and various forms of woo touting the physicians and scientists who support their claims, but who have limited or no expertise in the areas cited. And there was the recent op-ed in the Wall St. Journal by climate change doubters, most of who seemed to be trained in non-climate related fields but felt themselves qualified to emote on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/37 "2012-03-04T17:01:31Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > It doesn’t? You’re in the top one percent of people who know shit about the Constitution and that doesn’t make you an expert? Damn, experting is a tough field to break into. As it should be. I probably know more about computers and information technology than 99% of people in the US, but I wouldn’t set myself up as an expert either. There are still 3 million out there who might know more about it than I do. Nobody who counts(industry decision makers) would listen to me pontificate about how _I_ think IT departments should work, or what the role of the CIO ought to be; I’m not experienced enough, for one thing, and for the most part, I’m probably not educated enough either. That being said, maybe there’s a little misinterpretation on the OP’s part on Dawkins’ goals and work. If it is just pointing out that religion is non-scientific and ultimately required a great deal of faith, that’s fine. It’s pretty obvious to most of us, religious or atheist, who have spent any time thinking about it. However, if he’s going off and arguing that the Church had it wrong about Arianism or stuff like that, then yeah, he’s not qualified to talk about that. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/38 "2012-03-04T17:03:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It’s evidence for how low the bar is. 😃 > > The claims of religions aren’t exactly deep or meaningful. You don’t need to be the pope to look at the claims of Catholicism and realize they’re full of shit. You need to be able to reason and evaluate evidence. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/39 "2012-03-04T17:09:06Z")
Hanson is particularly problematic because he seems to think that Athenian society is an ideal. It’s rare, at least in the 21st century, for a classicist to go native, but he has actually bought a date farm and begun living as a smallholding hoplite. His desire to reconstruct Western society along agrarian militarist lines certainly strikes one as a bit fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708/40 "2012-03-04T17:09:09Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > You don’t think theology is a legitimate area of study? It’s a lot more involved than navel-gazing; it also involves a thorough knowledge of world history, the study of religious practices, and learning the reasons behind them. Theologians are trying to glean a better understanding of past and present beliefs & practices of religion. Is theology any less legitimate than the study of secular fiction or more-generalized anthropology? I say no. I went to parochial school for kindergarten through 12 grade. I went to a catholic university where I was required to take multiple theology classes in order to graduate. I understand what theology is and it’s worthless. Everything you say theology does, some other field does better with practical results and is based on empirical evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-richard-dawkins-victor-davis-hanson-and-people-like-them/614708.md?page=3)