# I pit (some) dog owners **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848 "2010-10-30T02:25:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/41 "2010-11-01T18:54:46Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Then again, in this oddball place we call Doperland, where nobody ever eats at Applebee’s, nobody’s dogs ever have more than one paw off the ground at any time when they’re not walking, and pit bulls are all loveable, perfectly behaved sweeties that attack far less frequently than elderly yellow Labs, so this is all pointless. Aww, I was mostly with you when you said dogs make mistakes and dogs will always come to the door and even when you said that you wouldn’t tolerate someone striking your dog in alleged self-defense (truly self-defending people would sidestep or fend off the dog rather than strike). But you lost me with the out-of-nowhere shot at pit bulls. My little American Pit Bull Terrier is perhaps too enthusiastic when meeting people…we are still working on keeping her feet on the floor…but it’s love she’s bringing. She wants to lick everyone and will climb into any lap that will have her. She’s never attacked man nor beast; during the time I’ve had her, I’ve seen yellow labs attack other dogs and threaten people, and been myself bitten by a miniature poodle and a Rottweiler. I’ve been threatened by a human-aggressive German Shorthaired Pointer, a Rhodesian Ridgeback, and some kind of large hunting spaniel who lives in the apartments near my bus stop. And I’ve been bitten numerous times buy cats. But I have _never_ been attacked by _any_ of the pit bulls I’ve met; even one mix I met (to evaluate) who was _extremely_ dog-aggressive, to the point that I felt unable to control her safely. She was scary to watch when she saw another dog, but she never made a move to harm or threaten a human. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/42 "2010-11-01T19:00:17Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Aww, I was mostly with you when you said dogs make mistakes and dogs will always come to the door and even when you said that you wouldn’t tolerate someone striking your dog in alleged self-defense (truly self-defending people would sidestep or fend off the dog rather than strike). But is the dog really going to learn anything if you just back off? If you gently keep the dog from leaping on you, it’ll learn that jumping up on someone = mildly painful/uncomfortable feeling. I mean, to us, I’m sure it would be unpleasant but I don’t think it’s a terrible thing to do to an animal. ---
**Author:** ![kathmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kathmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathmandu)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/43 "2010-11-01T20:19:13Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Aww, I was mostly with you when you said dogs make mistakes and dogs will always come to the door and even when you said that you wouldn’t tolerate someone striking your dog in alleged self-defense (truly self-defending people would sidestep or fend off the dog rather than strike). Lifting your knee IS fending off the dog. Dogs aren’t made of glass. Putting a fleshy barrier between a dog and your body isn’t “striking” it. Seriously, you expect people to run around in circles to keep from being jumped on? Because that’s what happens when you sidestep a dog who is bound and determined to jump on you. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/44 "2010-11-01T22:17:29Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Also, FWIW, many dogs, including mine, are quite intuitive when it comes to knowing the limits of other people; my dogs are unusually gentle with young children and the elderly, and more “bouncy” with adults. Ok. You’re a fucking dumbass. Clearly, if your psychic dog knows not to jump on kids, then you’re not part of the problem being complained about by the OP, in which case the OP is not directed at you, in which case, shut the fuck up. The fact that you insist on telling us how fucking intuitive your dog is, tells me that it’s a normal fucking dog whose owner has not taken the time to properly train it. Since no one wants to visit your dumb ass anyway, any debate over this is all just hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/45 "2010-11-01T22:18:49Z")
> [@kathmandu](#): > > Lifting your knee IS fending off the dog. Dogs aren’t made of glass. Putting a fleshy barrier between a dog and your body isn’t “striking” it. Seriously, you expect people to run around in circles to keep from being jumped on? Because that’s what happens when you sidestep a dog who is bound and determined to jump on you. In fact, lifting a knee and stepping into the dog is one way a trainer might address the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/46 "2010-11-01T23:33:32Z")
> [@kathmandu](#): > > Lifting your knee IS fending off the dog. Dogs aren’t made of glass. Putting a fleshy barrier between a dog and your body isn’t “striking” it. Seriously, you expect people to run around in circles to keep from being jumped on? Because that’s what happens when you sidestep a dog who is bound and determined to jump on you. Eh, if they’re really only lifting the knee, I’m with you. However, all too often, that’s a coded term for “punching/kicking the fucker.” And yes, I expect people to evade the dog once while the person responsible for the dog rushes over and regains control. I already agree that one should work with one’s dog not to place a burden on guests – I was merely taking issue with the frequently retaliatory nature of people “teaching a dog a lesson.” Leave that to ME, thank you – most people who are afraid of dogs know NOTHING about training them. If my dog misbehaves, yell at ME – I’m the one to blame anyway, and I will fix things and apologize. I don’t want my dog hurting or scaring you any more than you want to be hurt or scared. But frightened people who don’t understand dogs lashing out to “teach the dog” is frankly a stupid formula likely to lead to trouble instead of a well-trained dog. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/47 "2010-11-01T23:43:03Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > I know in Doperland, where nobody talks on a cell phone in public and Gabourey Sidibe is a frequent subject of masturbatory fantasies, all dogs are well trained and perfectly behaved. In the real world, they aren’t. Just like humans, dogs make mistakes. They sure do- which is why although my dog comes with me to answer the door, my hand is on his collar. Because although he is generally well-behaved, he might get a little too excited , forget his training and decide to lick the visitor to death. And since he’s 110 lbs, just the sight of him tends to frighten people who don’t know him - even people who are not afraid of more reasonably sized dogs. Nothing wrong with having the dog at the door with you- as long as you make certain the dog can’t jump on a person. Also nothing wrong with not putting the dog in another room in advance. if you don’t know the person is afraid - as long as you put the dog in another room at that point rather than insisting that the dog is friendly and wants to play. Or, if you (generic) are one of those people who thinks more of the dog’s comfort than the visitor’s, you could just tell them that. ---
**Author:** ![kathmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kathmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathmandu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/48 "2010-11-02T00:56:26Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > And yes, I expect people to evade the dog once while the person responsible for the dog rushes over and regains control. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t have a lot of faith in the dog’s owner to"rush over and regain control". If he had control (or any intention to control) the dog wouldn’t be in a position to jump on me in the first place. When I’ve been in that situation, the owner’s reaction is usually some ineffectual hand flapping and a half hearted “Down, Fluffy, down. Oh, he just has a lot of love to give - he won’t bite you. Isn’t he cute!”. ---
**Author:** ![Notchimine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bcef8e/32.png) [@Notchimine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notchimine)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/49 "2010-11-02T00:56:41Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Before you visit someone, do you tell them that your daughter is afraid of dogs? Do you expect that dog owners are going to corral their dogs into an out-of-the way room every time the doorbell rings and there’s an unannounced visitor, just in case the person at the door is afraid of dogs? > > Sorry, but if my doorbell rings, and I have no idea who it is, my dogs are coming with me to the door. Happy, friendly PWDs that love people are the best way to get rid of JWs, magazine salespeople, and the like; it gives me an excuse to get back indoors fast. To answer your question, yes, I expect dogs to corral their animals before I come into their home invited if they jump or bark. I have two small (less than ten pounds) dogs that bark. When the doorbell rings, I direct them into their crate or lock them in my bedroom whichever is closest. Why should my visitors be subjected to that racket and canine attention if they may not be dog lovers? My guest take priority over my animals even if I do consider one of my dogs my closest friend and favorite child. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/50 "2010-11-02T03:51:24Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > They sure do- which is why although my dog comes with me to answer the door, my hand is on his collar. Because although he is generally well-behaved, he might get a little too excited , forget his training and decide to lick the visitor to death. And since he’s 110 lbs, just the sight of him tends to frighten people who don’t know him - even people who are not afraid of more reasonably sized dogs. Exactly what we do. Our dog has been bred for something like 20 generations to be gentle, and would never jump on anyone. But she is a Golden and gets enthusiastic when not in a working situation, and a hand on the collar controls her from doing anything which might startle a visitor. She is about 65 pounds, so much easier to control. Assuming people don’t barge into the house, holding the collar before opening the door is the easiest thing in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/51 "2010-11-02T12:58:28Z")
> [@kathmandu](#): > > You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t have a lot of faith in the dog’s owner to"rush over and regain control". If he had control (or any intention to control) the dog wouldn’t be in a position to jump on me in the first place. When I’ve been in that situation, the owner’s reaction is usually some ineffectual hand flapping and a half hearted “Down, Fluffy, down. Oh, he just has a lot of love to give - he won’t bite you. Isn’t he cute!”. I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing what to do if a dog gets _out_ of control. Of course a dog should be properly socialized and properly managed in the first place. If the human has no intention or ability to control the dog, I still advise evading and asking/demanding that the human take control. I do not advise dog-phobic people to try some kind of trainer ju-jitsu on a dog with their legs, or to engage in any kind of physical contact or roughhousing, which coming from a fearful or angry human may be interpreted as combat. For thousands of years we’ve kept dogs specifically to attack strangers who enter our homes stinking of fear or anger and initiate combat. They might still do so even when you’re not really an intruder. Don’t strike at a dog in anger or fear, even if you feel justified. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/52 "2010-11-02T13:15:32Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I still advise evading and asking/demanding that the human take control. . _The human_ is taking control when they raise the knee. But you knew that already right? ---
**Author:** ![kathmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kathmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathmandu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/53 "2010-11-02T13:50:07Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing what to do if a dog gets _out_ of control. Of course a dog should be properly socialized and properly managed in the first place. > > If the human has no intention or ability to control the dog, I still advise evading and asking/demanding that the human take control. I do not advise dog-phobic people to try some kind of trainer ju-jitsu on a dog with their legs, or to engage in any kind of physical contact or roughhousing, which coming from a fearful or angry human may be interpreted as combat. > > For thousands of years we’ve kept dogs specifically to attack strangers who enter our homes stinking of fear or anger and initiate combat. They might still do so even when you’re not really an intruder. Don’t strike at a dog in anger or fear, even if you feel justified. I’m not a dog phobic person. I’ve had dogs all of my life. I’m not going to run around in circles pleading with an irresponsible dog owner to control his dog. I’m going to do it myself. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/54 "2010-11-02T18:37:22Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I Don’t strike at a dog in anger or fear, even if you feel justified. I’m sorry - I must have missed the post where someone advised actually striking the dog?? 😕 If you are referring to the ‘raised knee’, that is not the same as striking or kicking at the animal - it is simply a move to block and involves neither panic nor cruelty. I would like to think that this one movement will keep the dog from making further contact until the owner can responsibly restrain him. If the owner was paying attention, even that would not be necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/55 "2010-11-02T19:22:55Z")
> [@LilyoftheField](#): > > I’m sorry - I must have missed the post where someone advised actually striking the dog?? 😕 > > If you are referring to the ‘raised knee’, that is not the same as striking or kicking at the animal - it is simply a move to block and involves neither panic nor cruelty. I would like to think that this one movement will keep the dog from making further contact until the owner can responsibly restrain him. If the owner was paying attention, even that would not be necessary. You missed it because you appear to be in the wrong thread. The raised knee isn’t striking the dog when used by a professional trainer. The raised knee MIGHT not be striking the dog when used by a calm, collected, rational person for training purposes. But we’re _not talking about that._ You’re advocating the raised knee used by **a dog-phobic person or someone motivated by Pit-level anger to punish**. Trust me, there’s punitive thinking going on in this thread, as I’ve already agreed that the dog’s family should be controlling the dog and yet people “disagree” with me even so, possibly because they want to lash out at the dog. It’s conceivable that such a person is so weak that the knee wouldn’t constitute a strike, but it’s highly likely that it will be used with too much force because the person is _by definition_ reacting emotionally. I _do not advise_ that a dog-fearing person initiate physical combat with a dog. Just demand that the family assert control, or yes, leave. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/56 "2010-11-02T19:24:10Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > _The human_ is taking control when they raise the knee. But you knew that already right? Nope. If it’s the visitor who’s afraid of dogs, _the stranger coming into my house smelling of fear and/or anger_ is the one hitting the dog. Dogs know what to do with angry strangers forcing their way in. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/57 "2010-11-02T19:56:39Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > You missed it because you appear to be in the wrong thread. > > The raised knee isn’t striking the dog when used by a professional trainer. The raised knee MIGHT not be striking the dog when used by a calm, collected, rational person for training purposes. > > But we’re _not talking about that._ > > You’re advocating the raised knee used by **a dog-phobic person or someone motivated by Pit-level anger to punish**. Trust me, there’s punitive thinking going on in this thread, as I’ve already agreed that the dog’s family should be controlling the dog and yet people “disagree” with me even so, possibly because they want to lash out at the dog. > > It’s conceivable that such a person is so weak that the knee wouldn’t constitute a strike, but it’s highly likely that it will be used with too much force because the person is _by definition_ reacting emotionally. > > I _do not advise_ that a dog-fearing person initiate physical combat with a dog. Just demand that the family assert control, or yes, leave. Actually, that is what I am talking about - a raised knee used by a calm rational person - not someone who is attempting to ‘train’ the dog but just someone who is ‘annoyed’, not ‘enraged’ by a dog jumping up on them. You do not have to be a professional dog trainer to raise your knee in front of you to block a jumping dog. I am neither dog-phobic nor a professional trainer, and there is no way that I interpret raising my knee to a jumping dog to either an attempt at training or a fearful or enraged strike. The only way that dog is going to be even a little bit hurt is if he flings himself against my raised knee with enough power and aggression to hurt himself. And most friendly, over-enthusiastic dogs are not engaging in that kind of aggression. The kind of dogs we are discussing here are not motivated by aggression, just an excess of enthusiasm. And since most dogs will run to the door barking at the first knock/ring, no truly ‘dog-phobic’ person will set foot in that house before the dog is restrained. That’s the nature of a phobia. Nor do I think that anyone is disagreeing with you that it is the responsibility of the dog’s owner to control the animal. The problem arises only when the owner abdicates that responsibility and allows the animal free rein to do what it pleases. Even then, I don’t think this response is ‘punitive’. It’s defensive and reasonable. I am not advocating ‘punishment’ in any way - that’s not my job. And if I was scared shitless of an animal, the last thing I want to do is piss it off. I hardly think that showing people who are nervous about dogs (not phobic!) that they can ward the dog off with a raised knee, rather than scurrying around in circles squeaking, is hardly advocating rage or panic. ---
**Author:** ![maplekiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@maplekiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maplekiwi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/58 "2010-11-02T21:23:52Z")
I’m one of the raised knee people. I’ve never struck or hit a dog in my life. & I’m not afraid of unaggressive dogs. Used to own one myself. A friend training their overly exuberant dog asked me to do it & its been of huge benefit. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/59 "2010-11-03T02:32:29Z")
Whatever, I have hit the fuckers hard right in the chest with my knee and knocked them down, and I feel no guilt. Usually I only have to actually knee-hit the ones that are clawing at my legs in a frenzy and causing me pain (and annoyance). Luckily none of their owners have yet attacked me for assaulting their Poopsie. ETA: ‘ **Pit-level anger** ’, LOL. You could call it that. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848/60 "2010-11-03T15:28:34Z")
> [@LilyoftheField](#): > > Actually, that is what I am talking about - a raised knee used by a calm rational person - not someone who is attempting to ‘train’ the dog but just someone who is ‘annoyed’, not ‘enraged’ by a dog jumping up on them. You do not have to be a professional dog trainer to raise your knee in front of you to block a jumping dog. I am neither dog-phobic nor a professional trainer, and there is no way that I interpret raising my knee to a jumping dog to either an attempt at training or a fearful or enraged strike. The only way that dog is going to be even a little bit hurt is if he flings himself against my raised knee with enough power and aggression to hurt himself. And most friendly, over-enthusiastic dogs are not engaging in that kind of aggression. > > The kind of dogs we are discussing here are not motivated by aggression, just an excess of enthusiasm. And since most dogs will run to the door barking at the first knock/ring, no truly ‘dog-phobic’ person will set foot in that house before the dog is restrained. That’s the nature of a phobia. > > Nor do I think that anyone is disagreeing with you that it is the responsibility of the dog’s owner to control the animal. The problem arises only when the owner abdicates that responsibility and allows the animal free rein to do what it pleases. Even then, I don’t think this response is ‘punitive’. It’s defensive and reasonable. I am not advocating ‘punishment’ in any way - that’s not my job. Well, you’re bringing something new into the thread, which was originally about people who are afraid and/or angry as much as it was about dogs who are wild. You have a point but it’s _dangerous_ to advise _these_ people to do that, since they are _not_ taking a calm and rational approach. The OP does indeed discuss a dog-phobic person coming into the house and there have been purely emotional responses by some posters who _do_ seem to be punitive and not interested in training for training’s sake. Those are the ones I’m addressing. > [@rhubarbarin](#): > > Whatever, I have hit the fuckers hard right in the chest with my knee and knocked them down, and I feel no guilt. There’s one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-some-dog-owners/558848.md?page=4)