# I pit South Africa for doing a poor imitation of Buggs Bunny **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 12, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806 "2009-09-12T06:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/21 "2009-09-14T03:23:58Z")
edit, nevermind wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/22 "2009-09-14T04:12:52Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Pick a test and argue why the test is valid instead of patronizing women athletes by defining them as less capable. This is comical. Try reading and thinking with your blinders off. Elite female athletes can not compete with elite male athletes. They ARE less capable. Fact: males are bigger and stronger. Get over it. Take a look at the sports worlds around you. Look at the record books. Stating so is not patronizing them, it’'s dealing with reality. If you’re rather not, and simply avoid gender altogether, go ahead. I’m sure women athletes across the country would thank you for making them 100% non-competitive. Why do you think we have men’s and women’s teams in the every college, not to mention the Olympics?Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/23 "2009-09-14T06:13:56Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > There aren’t any bright-line rules, and each test would have some edge cases, but when you’re claiming it’s obvious because _she runs faster than other women_, then you are arguing from a bad position. I think you are confusing the position. People are just pointing out that because elite men run faster than elite women there needs to be a “womens only” category if women are going to have a reasonable prospect of ever winning. You are erroneously thinking that these arguments are intended to suggest that this athlete should be excluded because she runs faster. People think this athlete should be excluded because (according to the news stories) she has significant and rather unusual objectively existent and highly relevant biological characteristics which blur the line as to whether she is male or female (in particular, she is said to have testes). I don’t have any position on the question, I don’t really care, but I don’t think your characterisation of the arguments is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/24 "2009-09-14T09:36:07Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > People think this athlete should be excluded because (according to the news stories) she has significant and rather unusual objectively existent and highly relevant biological characteristics which blur the line as to whether she is male or female (in particular, she is said to have testes). I don’t have any position on the question, I don’t really care, but I don’t think your characterisation of the arguments is accurate. Relevant to _what_? Her ability to run faster? That’s my exact point. Characteristics that make her _better_ must make her not a woman? That’s why instead of saying “derp, it’s obvious hermaphrodites should compete with men because they are better”, people need to think about what they mean when they talk about women’s sports. If your definition includes “don’t have characteristics that make them good”, you’re just enforcing gender stereotypes. Thus, these people who think it’s just obvious need to come up with a definition that doesn’t refer to performance ability, which is what I challenged them to do. And go back and read **Lemur** ’s last paragraph again. He is saying _exactly_ that she is faster and thus should be excluded. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/25 "2009-09-14T10:01:29Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Relevant to _what_? Her ability to run faster? No you’re still missing it. The key point is that she is said to have testes which are a singularly male characteristic. You’re going to have to face up to this simple fact sooner or later. Think about it this way: if Semenya had no notable biological characteristic that made her male or male-like as such, but just had an overall physique that meant she could outrun Usain Bolt, would anyone be saying “hey you have a body that allows you to run faster than men so you can’t compete against women”? Until you grok the reason why nobody would argue that, you’re not going to get it. > [@](#): > > And go back and read **Lemur** ’s last paragraph again. He is saying _exactly_ that she is faster and thus should be excluded. I did. He isn’t. Quote me an exact sentence or phrase where he says this. The key to his paragraph is “if you’ve got the metabolism and physique of a man”. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/26 "2009-09-14T10:19:29Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Relevant to _what_? Her ability to run faster? That’s my exact point. Characteristics that make her _better_ must make her not a woman? No, TESTICLES make her not a woman. What is so hard to understand about that? I support her right to live her life how she feels most comfortable, with whatever gender identity she feels is correct. I don’t support allowing her to compete against women, **since the whole point of having a separate woman’s class is to allow them to compete without men constantly beating them.** If she feels she must compete, she should compete against men. I think women should be allowed to do so anyway, if they want. Men’s competition should be open to whoever wants to compete. Women’s competitions should be limited to genetic females. I feel for the women who don’t have a conventional physical makeup (extra chromosome, testicles, hermaphrodites, etc) and the additional challenges they must face, but this must be handled in this way to assure that women’s competitions remain what they were intended to be - a place when women can compete on equal footing. This is really quite a simple thing. If we can’t agree that having male sexual organs means you are physically a male, how the hell can people reach a consensus on more nuanced subjects? This is, of course, assuming she really does have testes. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/27 "2009-09-14T14:54:36Z")
> [@](#): > > She has clearly raced for years in order to compete at an international level. Did every girl she raced against in South Africa know she had no ovaries? In my senior year in high school, her time would have won her third place in Sectionals. That was over 20 years ago, too. What she calls herself is really not the issue. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/28 "2009-09-14T20:09:36Z")
I’m not sure what this has to do with Bugs Bunny. Is it about those times he wore a dress? 'Cause that line “I’m your little Senor - riter” never fails to crack me up. That Bugs. Whatta card. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/29 "2009-09-14T21:27:36Z")
> [@NicePete](#): > > I’m not sure what this has to do with Bugs Bunny. Is it about those times he wore a dress? 'Cause that line “I’m your little Senor - riter” never fails to crack me up. > > That Bugs. Whatta card. Of course you realize, THIS MEANS WAR!!! ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/30 "2009-09-14T22:44:24Z")
Caster should not be competing with women, I fail to even see why folks would argue otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![AqualungBats5th](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@AqualungBats5th](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AqualungBats5th)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/31 "2009-09-14T23:33:45Z")
> [@](#): > > No, TESTICLES make her not a woman. What is so hard to understand about that? I support her right to live her life how she feels most comfortable, with whatever gender identity she feels is correct. You seem confused here. If she has testicles, that makes her intersex, and not _female_. Female is not always the same as woman. Gender is not the same as sex. Something to remember if you truly support the right of people to live as whatever gender identity they feel is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/32 "2009-09-15T01:15:35Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > You seem confused here. If she has testicles, that makes her intersex, and not _female_. Female is not always the same as woman. Gender is not the same as sex. Something to remember if you truly support the right of people to live as whatever gender identity they feel is correct. Does she have ovaries? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/33 "2009-09-15T01:41:56Z")
Does not having ovaries make you a man? Cause I know this woman, er… I mean, thing… ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/34 "2009-09-15T01:53:09Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > You seem confused here. If she has testicles, that makes her intersex, and not _female_. Female is not always the same as woman. Gender is not the same as sex. Something to remember if you truly support the right of people to live as whatever gender identity they feel is correct. “Woman” and “female” are completely synonymous within the context of sports eligibility. Don’t be obtuse. People can support full rights and respect and concern for the intersex and transgendered and whatever other gender issues you can name while also supporting a restrictive definition of female wrt athletics. Don’t try to paint the person slightly misusing the word “woman” and “female” as someone hideously insensitive to human rights. I feel the same way about this issue as I do about the rights of people with only one eye to play in the NHL. It’s unfortunate that they can’t, but the rules exist for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/35 "2009-09-15T01:54:33Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > You seem confused here. If she has testicles, that makes her intersex, and not _female_. Female is not always the same as woman. Gender is not the same as sex. Something to remember if you truly support the right of people to live as whatever gender identity they feel is correct. Men aren’t segregated sports-wise to promote fairness, women are. This isn’t about gender rights, it’s about sport fairness. ---
**Author:** ![AqualungBats5th](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@AqualungBats5th](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AqualungBats5th)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/36 "2009-09-15T02:17:26Z")
> [@](#): > > “Woman” and “female” are completely synonymous within the context of sports eligibility. Don’t be obtuse. I actually wasn’t talking about sports. **Face Intentionally Left Blank** said that having testes makes Caster Semenya not a woman. That is just not correct regardless of whether she is eligible to play women’s sports. And for the record, no reliable source has said anything about the state of her internal sex organs. The IAAF has refused to comment on the articles stating that Ms. Semenya has testes, and has said the full results will not be available until November. All we know right now is that she has higher than normal levels of testosterone. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/37 "2009-09-15T02:21:51Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > I actually wasn’t talking about sports. **Face Intentionally Left Blank** said that having testes makes Caster Semenya not a woman. That is just not correct regardless of whether she is eligible to play women’s sports. > > And for the record, no reliable source has said anything about the state of her internal sex organs. The IAAF has refused to comment on the articles stating that Ms. Semenya has testes, and has said the full results will not be available until November. All we know right now is that she has higher than normal levels of testosterone. Well, **supergoose** had already very clearly explained the gender/sex issue above, and for this thread it had seemed that it was explicit that we would be referring strictly to physical sex, since that is the only thing that matters in athletics. As for the fact that this is entirely speculation, I agree. My comments, as they were, should be interpreted as referring to the athlete competing as a female who is found to have internal male sex organs, not specifically Caster Semenya. Also, I find the ads on the bottom of this page to be rather offensive in their terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/38 "2009-09-15T02:40:18Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > I actually wasn’t talking about sports. **Face Intentionally Left Blank** said that having testes makes Caster Semenya not a woman. That is just not correct regardless of whether she is eligible to play women’s sports. > > And for the record, no reliable source has said anything about the state of her internal sex organs. The IAAF has refused to comment on the articles stating that Ms. Semenya has testes, and has said the full results will not be available until November. All we know right now is that she has higher than normal levels of testosterone. I’m confused. Is this now a semantics thing? Cause I gotta tell you, AFAIK, if you have testes and no ovaries, that’s pretty much MALE (is that the correct word?). I recognize that there is a percentage of the population that is born with what we might call a less-common arrangement of sexual organs, and I do support them making whatever lifestyle choices they need to make to be comfortable and happy, but to break it down for sports purposes, +testes -ovaries = you play sports against men. I get the feeling I’m not using the right words. I don’t know any trans-gender ppl, AFAIK, and so I’m not up on the sensitive terminology. I do mean it when I say I feel it’s no one’s business but your own what you self-identify as, but when it comes to competitions that are divided by sex for the purposes for equal competition, you can’t allow one person’s rights to step on the rights of another group. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/39 "2009-09-15T04:26:04Z")
> [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#): > > Cause I gotta tell you, AFAIK, if you have testes and no ovaries, that’s pretty much MALE (is that the correct word?). I dunno. AFAIK, if you have a vagina and no penis, that makes you female. I mean, if you’re looking for your absolute, bog standard definition of gender, isn’t that the gold standard? Dangly bits or no dangly bits? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806/40 "2009-09-15T07:18:52Z")
The OP can get fucked. If he’d typed “I pit the South African government” or “I pit the South African Sports Minister”, I’d be right there with him. The whole thing is farcical. But he wants to pit the whole country? Fuck him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-south-africa-for-doing-a-poor-imitation-of-buggs-bunny/509806.md?page=3)