# I Pit Split\_p\_j **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620 "2021-05-07T22:08:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/502 "2023-12-22T20:23:23Z")
Actually, split gets partial credit on this one. The classic statues of Greece and Rome are white marble NOW. They were originally brightly painted (often the skin was lemon yellow). Those pigments degraded much more quickly and easily than the marble base. So, for many centuries those statues have been white. He is wrong that they were “whitewashed” in any sense. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/503 "2023-12-22T20:24:07Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I’d ask what fucking statues you are talking about > **[The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/the-myth-of-whiteness-in-classical-sculpture)** > > Greek and Roman statues were often painted, but assumptions about race and aesthetics have suppressed this truth. Now scholars are making a color correction. > **[Whitewashing Ancient Statues: Whiteness, Racism And Color In The Ancient World](https://www.forbes.com/sites/drsarahbond/2017/04/27/whitewashing-ancient-statues-whiteness-racism-and-color-in-the-ancient-world/?sh=31f0eecf75ad)** > > Why does pop culture continue to imagine that the statues of the classical world were all white? Can the digital addition of painted colors to the ancient statues depicted within film, video games and other media correct the false ideal of whiteness... And it can be argued that this isn’t really about race as much as it is about cultural expectations about classical sculpture. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/504 "2023-12-22T20:53:37Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > He is wrong that they were “whitewashed” in any sense. They were whitewashed by time. FATHER TIME IS A FUCKING RACIST!!!11 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/505 "2023-12-22T21:44:41Z")
Here’s a more recent poll about racial attitudes toward immigration. The data appears to show that attitudes toward immigration fall more along party lines than race. [https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/race-ethnicity-and-american-views-immigration-and-diversity](https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/race-ethnicity-and-american-views-immigration-and-diversity) He’s probably just been watching a lot of YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/506 "2023-12-22T21:50:00Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I think you meant to say “I’m fucking up on this, you guys”. Because you are. Could be some Freudian thing: insert “with” and delete “up”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/507 "2023-12-22T22:02:07Z")
Anyone happen to have a cite showing that in the US, Irish or Italians were ever considered as not white? I buy they were discriminated against, but viewed as not white? Just one poster’s say-so isn’t cutting it for me. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/508 "2023-12-22T22:08:18Z")
[![](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3fa61945dca5d592594c97eaba768f60.webp) ](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3fa61945dca5d592594c97eaba768f60.webp) “An illustration from the influential American magazine Harper’s Weekly shows an alleged similarity between “Irish Iberian” and “Negro” features in contrast to the higher “Anglo-Teutonic.” The accompanying caption indicates that the so-called Iberians were “believed to have been” an African race.” ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/509 "2023-12-22T22:09:59Z")
I think it’s complicated by how you define whiteness. This article goes into it. > **[Analysis | Sorry, but the Irish were always ‘white’ (and so were Italians,...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/03/22/sorry-but-the-irish-were-always-white-and-so-were-the-italians-jews-and-so-on/)** > > Contrary to the Whiteness studies industry, the status of "ethnic" immigrants as white was historically well-accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/510 "2023-12-22T22:10:23Z")
There was a book about the Irish first published almost a decade ago: > **[How the Irish Became White](https://books.google.com/books/about/How_the_Irish_Became_White.html?id=fqUAzhs-FLEC&source=kp_book_description)** > > '...from time to time a study comes along that truly can be called ‘path breaking,’ ‘seminal,’ ‘essential,’ a ‘must read.’ How the Irish Became White is such a study.' John Bracey, W.E.B. Du Bois Department of Afro-American Studies, University of... This appears to be a summary: [https://sites.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html](https://sites.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/511 "2023-12-22T22:15:59Z")
Here’s a quote from that article: > The racist pseudo-science of the day divided Europeans into various races by nationality or perceived nationality, and often created a hierarchy among those groups. But that was a racist hierarchy within the white group, not evidence that these groups weren’t considered to be white. This point is often obscured by the whiteness studies crowd, because racism within a white hierarchy conflicts with their understanding of American racism solely being about “whiteness.” I don’t know what I think of these arguments, just putting them out there. The claim that Irish people and Italian people were not considered white is a very popular claim in some progressive circles and I encountered it a lot in grad school, where I was required to take a year long course on American Racism and the Black/white binary. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/512 "2023-12-23T02:15:48Z")
Ben Franklin seemed to consider only a very few Europeans to be really “white” writing things like > That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All _Africa_ is black or tawny. _Asia_ chiefly tawny. _America_ (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in _Europe_ , the _Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians_ and _Swedes_ , are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the _Germans_ also, the _Saxons_ only excepted, who with the _English_ , make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. But these distinctions didn’t make it into law and common practice - an African-American who managed to pass himself off as Italian or East Indian was far bwtter off in terms of how American society treated him. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/513 "2023-12-23T02:37:40Z")
What a swell guy, that Ben Franklin. This is neither here nor there but I know a white guy who is so enraptured with Ben Franklin that he tried to write a fantasy novel about Ben Franklin’s magical white son (who died young in reality) being secretly rescued and raised by Black people, saving a bunch of slaves and bringing his corrupted Black half-brother over from the land of the damned, and we were like, “Um … Probably don’t write this.” He wrote the damned thing. I can’t imagine why he never got it published. When he pitched it, the first question the publisher asked was, “How is this not a white savior narrative?” He didn’t even have a good answer. When he included a line referencing Ben & Sally’s “love affair,” I wrote in the margins, “You mean rape, right? Surely you mean rape.” He’s a Democrat. Is that better than the literal KKK stanning your candidate? Marginally? Not my call to make, but I’ve heard some people express that they prefer overt racism to this kind of shit. ETA: Also, it bears mentioning that “Italians and Irish weren’t viewed as white” is a favored Republican argument for why Blacks didn’t have it really that bad, you see, times were tough for a lot of people and you don’t see Irish people whining about it. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/514 "2023-12-23T02:51:02Z")
Did you mean Thomas Jefferson or did the person you’re describing somehow conflate Ben Franklin with Thomas Jefferson? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/515 "2023-12-23T02:55:11Z")
I meant Ben Franklin and yes he did. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/516 "2023-12-23T03:36:31Z")
Correction. It didn’t sit right with me that he would get that detail wrong because he was a history buff. I went back and looked up the manuscript. This was five years ago. I was correct, it was Ben Franklin’s son. The Sally Hemings reference was my mistake, which I assumed from a vague line of dialog. Great writing. Garbage premise. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/517 "2023-12-23T06:21:43Z")
Internal hierarchies within the White cohort doesn’t cause any problems for _this_ proponent of Whiteness studies. White supremacy is a strongly hierarchical system in all ways. No surprises there. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/518 "2023-12-23T06:46:01Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Here’s a quote from that article: Law professors that use phrases like, “The whiteness studies crowd,” are not good sources of info about the history of race in America or the world. He’s particularly ignorant about the history of the labor movement. He asks, “Some labor unions restricted their membership to whites. Did such unions exclude members of the group in question?” And the answer to that is, “Yes.” This was extremely common. And the condescending title of that garbage article is the cherry on top of a shit sundae. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/519 "2023-12-23T15:16:24Z")
I’d never even heard of “whiteness studies” until it was raised in this thread, but it sounds interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/520 "2023-12-23T16:53:32Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > > > So you do agree black support for Biden is down? If you do, why do you think that is the case? > > I’m no expert on the Black voting bloc, but my guess would be that many Black people don’t feel Biden or the Democrats are representing their interests. Black people tend to lean pro-life, so that might be a factor. Maybe they don’t think Biden is doing enough to address structural racism. I mean there could be a lot of reasons, right? Is it true that black people lean pro-life, though? I just browsed through some surveys and I’m not really seeing that, although I did see one [article](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/318932/black-americans-abortion.aspx) that suggested that it used to be true, but it has shifted over the past 10-20 years. It is also true that black people and other POC avail themselves of their right to abortion at a [significantly](https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2008/08/abortion-and-women-color-bigger-picture) [higher](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1307659/distribution-legal-abortions-select-states-us-race-ethnicity/) rate than white people.I believe this is due to a correlation between abortion rates and income. It’s a disparity that’s grown over time, which I why I also believe that the recent dismantling of abortion rights is an act of systemic racism. I would think that abortion rights would be a galvanizing issue among young men, regardless of color….as unwanted pregnancies affect fathers as well as mothers. I woukd also like to think that this that the Republican flavor of law and order, which concentrates on draconian punishments for the types of crimes perpetuated disproportionately by young black people while minimizing white collar white people crime, would be a concern to young black voters. When Trump bellows about executing drug dealers, he doesn’t just mean fentanyl smugglers, he means the 15 year old kid who runs a package to the corner at the request of his cousin. Republicans also advocate for the elevation of certain misdemeanors to felonies, and also advocate for, and are attempting to mandate strict prosecution of non-violent crimes like shoplifting. While this is often seen as a quality of life issue, its short sighted because you can’t reduce crime long term when you take actions that exclude a large portion of the population from legitimate employment for the rest of their lives. I would also hope that young black people are paying attention to the story of Ruby Freeman and her daughter, because of the actual lynch mobs after a completely innocent person that could be her grandmother. I must admit to taking a look for this “New Black Media”, and I came up blank, so they can’t be that influential…….unless that’s what split pj calls Candace Owens and what’s left of Diamond and Silk after one of them was actually killed by their wrong-headed beliefs. And, yeah, I’m going to say that anecdotally, I’ve seen the animosity between young black men and young Hispanic men during my time working on construction sites, but I wouldn’t like to think that large numbers of voters of any stripe would vote against their self interest because of hate. But I know it’s possible, and I know who’s whipping up the hate and I hope voters are smart enough to see through it. But I’m still not sure what split pj is suggesting, unless he’s saying he and his friends aren’t going to vote for Biden unless he starts hurting Hispanics bad, because right now some of them are getting crappy food for free and it’s not fair………… ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620/521 "2023-12-23T18:49:08Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > what’s left of Diamond and Silk after one of them was actually killed by their wrong-headed beliefs. The belief that high sodium foods are a good idea? > **['Diamond' of pro-Trump commentary duo dies of heart disease](https://www.yahoo.com/now/diamond-pro-trump-commentary-duo-221840447.html)** > > Lynette Hardaway, a zealous supporter of former President Donald Trump whose death had prompted widespread speculation over its cause, died earlier this month of a heart condition, according to a death certificate obtained Monday by The Associated... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-split-p-j/941620.md?page=27)