# I pit students who punch their teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201 "2006-04-25T20:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/41 "2006-04-26T07:28:33Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If you push for expulsion and file charges against this kid you destroy his reputation, put him through a traumatic experience, cost his family a good sum of money, screw him for college and scholarships, considerably lower the level of his education, introduce him to an extremely negative element, and potentially remove positive influences on his life. Is that what this kid really deserves for three little punches to the arm? Yes. Deal with it now, and let him learn there are consequences to his actions. We have far too many people resorting to violence in our society. We don’t need our schools teaching that this is acceptable behavior. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/42 "2006-04-26T09:42:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Knew this response was coming, just knew it. And by 9th grade (what, 14 or 15 yrs old?) I knew what behavior was acceptable and what behavior was not. Even though I was good friends with many of my teachers, I never dreamed I could playfully punch, push, or other wise physically interact with one of them. Hell a handshake or hug, which is acceptable, didn’t cross my mind. She’s not one of your high school chums you can horseplay with, she’s your teacher. He should be punished as directed in the districts policy ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/43 "2006-04-26T10:13:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Let me explain to you, and to everyone else in this thread, what charging this kid with assault and expelling him will mean. The first is that he will be forever known as “the kid who got arrested for hitting a teacher.” He will not be remembered as “the kid who got arrested for three light taps on a teacher’s arm.” He will be remembered as the kid who assaulted, i.e. attacked a teacher so harshly he was arrested for it. That is not the image you want to have around the school. Let me explain to you what letting this kid get off scot-free with punching a teacher will mean. The first is that she will forever be known as “the teacher who got punched by a kid.” She will not be remembered as “the teacher who has authority over her students.” She will be remembered as the teacher who you can do anything to, in whose classroom you can do anything you want to and get away with it. That is not the image you want to have around the school. ---
**Author:** ![Only\_Mostly\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f19dbf/32.png) [@Only\_Mostly\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Only_Mostly_Dead)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/44 "2006-04-26T12:05:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Perhaps, but I have said things to teachers, and they have said things to me, that if I had made a pit thread about it would elicit similar responses as to this one. For example, my senior year I insinuated that my English teacher got into college parties becuase she was easy. Of course I only did so becuase I thought we had a friendly relationship, but what if I was wrong and that crossed a line? Sometimes you cross a line in a relationship, but as long as there are no ill intentions its simply a matter of letting someone know they went too far. The kid is a discipline case in multiple classes, with multiple teachers. Thing is, this time he actually laid his hands on a teacher, and it sure as hell wasn’t because they “had a friendly relationship.” > [@](#): > > Cavalierly? Why? Becuase they didn’t call in the SWAT team to have this kid dragged kicking and screaming from school? Scheduling a meeting with both sides is a perfectly controlled, reasonable response. If further punishment is warranted, then it can be doled out after all the facts are in. I mean look at the complete overreaction on this board. Calling the cops, charging him with assault, expelling him. For crying out loud the kid didn’t even leave a mark on our poor widdle dainty teacher. Calling the cops = filing assault charges, as anybody would (and should) do when another attacks them, no matter how lightly. That it is a student and teacher makes it MORE serious, not less. It does not mean forceably removing the student from the building in handcuffs, though whatever the immediate action taken, it should not be send the student back to class like nothing happened while a meeting is scheduled. > [@](#): > > Lets say the people on this board got their wish. The kid marches down to the principal’s office where he is instantly expelled, the cops are immediately called, and he is dragged away in handcuffs facing assault charges. Am I the only one that could see a pit thread bemoaning the cops dragging a kid from school in handcuffs? Or perhaps one decrying the evils of “zero tolerance” and adminstrators that lack common sense. I can’t believe the howls of outrage a measured, reasonable response is elicting in this thread. …where he is instantly suspended, whether by being sent home by administration, or at least held in the office until the end of the day. That is the policy many places elsewhere, and is a perfectly reasonable one. And in this case, there wouldn’t be a thread decrying zero tolerance because those who know of the incident will believe the kid got exactly what he deserved by confronting, without reason or cause, a teacher. > [@](#): > > As to the OP, get a freaking grip. Three punches on the arm, light enough to leave no mark mind you, should not be enough to send a grown adult into tears. It sure as hell should not be enough to knock someone off their A-game an entire day later. > > Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. > > I hope for the sake of this kid you don’t pull this poor widdle victim act. “Well, um Principal Smith, as you can see I am just a poor widdle helpless blonde woman. This kid whos a full head taller than me, becuase remember I am just a poor widdle 5’2” woman, assaulted me three times in the arm. So visciously, I might add, that it left no marks at all on my dainty widdle skin." > > Get a grip. Where do you work, **treis**? I’m guessing so long as it isn’t a penal or military institution, you have a reasonable expectation that you will not be assaulted on the job. It’s a disturbing, disgusting thing that **El Perro Fumando** works in a job that should have such an expectation, but in reality actually has a county policy outlining what will be done in event of a student assault. And as to your “get a grip” bullshit: Imagine you work 10-12 hours every day between classtime, conferences, grading, planning. You get a shitty base salary, and you get no overtime. You get policies (school, county, state, and Federal) that all are aimed solely at making your job all the more difficult to perform. You genuinely care enough to still take that job, and work it to the point where the stress already has a detrimental effect on your health after four months, because you believe education actually is important, you’re a kind idealist who wants to effect what little positive change you can (and you also really have extensive knowledge of your content area and the skill to impart that knowledge on students). Then one of the kids you’re already killing yourself to help comes up to you and hits you. Yeah, it’s not hard physically, but it’s absolute fucking Hiroshima to your emotions. Fuck you, **treis** for forgiving this shitstain of a student for being the straw to break the camel’s back. > [@](#): > > Let me explain to you, and to everyone else in this thread, what charging this kid with assault and expelling him will mean. The first is that he will be forever known as “the kid who got arrested for hitting a teacher.” He will not be remembered as “the kid who got arrested for three light taps on a teacher’s arm.” He will be remembered as the kid who assaulted, i.e. attacked a teacher so harshly he was arrested for it. That is not the image you want to have around the school. > > Second, if he is charged with assault he will be arrested. That means he might be handcuffed by the police, searched, and finger printed. A traumatic experience for anyone, let alone a 12-13 year old boy. In addition to being arrested, he will have to go through the ordeal of a trial. That probably entails hiring an expensive lawyer that his family may or may not be able to afford. Lastly, every college application, job application, scholarship application etc. etc. will have the question “Have you ever been arrested? If so, please explain.” > > That means every college he applies to, every scholarship he wants etc. etc. will get to hear the story of how he was arrested for assaulting his teacher. Now, again remembering that assault does not evoke “three light taps on the arm,” it evokes a much more serious attack, is this the type of person you want in your college or to recieve your scholarship? I don’t think so. > > On to the result of expulsion. Depending on your district, and I imagine for a large one like DC this is the case, expulsion means you are sent to the “alternative” high school. In this alternative high school he will most likely take classes with drug dealers, gang members, people who really attacked someone among other unsavory individuals. Most of them will be counting down the days till they drop out. In that sort of enviroment the education he will recieve is much below the standard in his current high school. > > Normally these alternative high school’s do not have sports teams or any sort of activities. Even beyond simply removing an activity that this kid may enjoy, you have to think what is happening here. You are removing positive influences in his life, and sticking him in a decidedly negative situation. What do you think that does to his chances of avoiding trouble and leading a successful life? > > If you push for expulsion and file charges against this kid you destroy his reputation, put him through a traumatic experience, cost his family a good sum of money, screw him for college and scholarships, considerably lower the level of his education, introduce him to an extremely negative element, and potentially remove positive influences on his life. Is that what this kid really deserves for three little punches to the arm? And all the more he deserves it. His reputation is already as a borderline violent negative influence. He has had discipline problems with numerous other teachers, altercations with other students, and his grades are toilet no matter how much help is offered. Will he get expelled for this? Almost certainly not. Because physically it was “just three little hits.” So your alternative school flight of fancy is irrelevant. Will he get suspended? He’d damn well better, since (and I can’t believe this has to be said again and again because you’re excusing it based on degree. Maybe bolding will help) **he attacked a teacher!** Degree is the afterthought that determines how seriously he should be punished. The fact that he so much as touched a teacher should be enough for at least the minimum suspension. Hell, the dictionary definition of assault goes as far down as “threat of violence.” And should charges be brought against him? Yes! **HE ATTACKED A TEACHER!** And it may well come to nothing because, of course, it was “just three little hits” that didn’t bruise. But the mere act of reminding the kid that his actions have solid, real world consequences is important beyond measure. Oh, and he’s a minor, which means that in most jurisdictions, and on most charges, that record is sealed or expunged upon turning 18. It’s chalked up to immaturity, a “youthful transgression” that carries little to no weight at all once he’s applying for jobs. > [@](#): > > It would also be a good idea to drop this “I am just a small little woman” bit. It would also be a good idea to drop this “blame the victim” bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/45 "2006-04-26T13:23:21Z")
> [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > The kid is a discipline case in multiple classes, with multiple teachers. Thing is, this time he actually laid his hands on a teacher, and it sure as hell wasn’t because they “had a friendly relationship.” Sounds like she has a healthy network of peer support. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > Calling the cops = filing assault charges, as anybody would (and should) do when another attacks them, **no matter how lightly**. That it is a student and teacher makes it MORE serious, not less. It does not mean forceably removing the student from the building in handcuffs, though whatever the immediate action taken, it should not be send the student back to class like nothing happened while a meeting is scheduled. I think there should be a reasonable grounds to call it “assault”. “No matter how lightly” seems an over reaction. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > And in this case, there wouldn’t be a thread decrying zero tolerance because those who know of the incident will believe the kid got exactly what he deserved by confronting, without reason or cause, a teacher. Well, you’re suggesting zero tollerance and I’m suggesting you’re overreacting. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > And as to your “get a grip” bullshit: Imagine you work 10-12 hours every day between classtime, conferences, grading, planning. You get a shitty base salary, and you get no overtime. You get policies (school, county, state, and Federal) that all are aimed solely at making your job all the more difficult to perform. You genuinely care enough to still take that job, and work it to the point where the stress already has a detrimental effect on your health after four months, because you believe education actually is important, you’re a kind idealist who wants to effect what little positive change you can (and you also really have extensive knowledge of your content area and the skill to impart that knowledge on students). Then one of the kids you’re already killing yourself to help comes up to you and hits you. Yeah, it’s not hard physically, but it’s absolute fucking Hiroshima to your emotions. You’ve just made a strong case for why this might be an overreaction. Clearly emotions are ruling the day. The OP never expressed feeling threatened; Just morally outraged that the student punched her on the shoulder, _lightly_. Inappropriate action? Absolutely. Badly handled by admin staff? Certainly. Deserving of discipline and parental involvement? Definitely. Worthy of expulsion? Hardly. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > And all the more he deserves it. His reputation is already as a borderline violent negative influence. He has had discipline problems with numerous other teachers, altercations with other students, and his grades are toilet no matter how much help is offered. Sounds like the kid is a perfect candidate for sweeping under the rug. And here is a great excuse to do it. Make him someone else’s problem, eh? I’m not saying the OP has no cause for concern or complaint. I’m just suggesting that “hang him high” is a response that is perhaps a little bit out of proportion in this case. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/46 "2006-04-26T13:35:23Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Irrelevant. Students don’t lay hands on teachers. Ever. Period. Oh, I agree. I’m just trying to figure out what this little shit was thinking at the time. Oh, and **treis** – you lose the thread, due to a violation of the Skut Farkus rule. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/47 "2006-04-26T13:46:41Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Not excusing what he did, but were they violent punches or “friendly” punches? Is there anywhere in the world where there’s a such thing as “friendly punches” from a male student to a female teacher? Oh, and ditto **Chefguy’s** comment… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/48 "2006-04-26T13:57:55Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Is there anywhere in the world where there’s a such thing as “friendly punches” from a male student to a female teacher? A punch in the arm is sometimes a weird male bonding ritual. One that I’ve never liked. I’m just wondering if the student punched as some bizarre sort of show of affection. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/49 "2006-04-26T14:05:02Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Is there anywhere in the world where there’s a such thing as “friendly punches” from a male student to a female teacher? Hmm… a 13 or 14 year old, immature boy, teen hormones starting to rage, lack of personal boundaries, displaced attachement to the teacher, maybe even a well hidden crush… yeah, I can see there being such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/50 "2006-04-26T14:11:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Clearly emotions are ruling the day. The OP never expressed feeling threatened; Just morally outraged that the student punched her on the shoulder, lightly. Who do you think has a better idea of the OP’s state of mind - you from reading the thread, or someone who shares a dinner table with her? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/51 "2006-04-26T14:39:38Z")
See, in my school this is what would have happened: 1. Cretinous pile of dogshit punches teacher. 2. Teacher calls office on telephone or intercom. 3. Office dispatches security and/or me. 4. Cretinous pile of dogshit is cuffed and removed to the office. Tazed, if necessary, as well. 5. Cretinous pile of dogshit exits the building in handcuffs in the custody of police. 6. Charges are filed against cretinous pile of dogshit. “Friendly punches?” From a male student to a female teacher? That is the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while. If it is implied that it is in any way okay to lay hands on staff, there will be big problems. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/52 "2006-04-26T14:46:41Z")
_El Perro Fumando_, while I love blonde 5’2" schoolteachers as much as the next guy, I really don’t think you are reacting appropriately to this incident. A better course of action would have been to take the student aside, privately, and calmly explain to him that 1)his action were inappropriate considering the relationship between you, 2) you were uncomfortable/felt threatened, and that 3) you trust that no more physical contact will occur in the future. Demonstrate to him that while you have his interests in mind(thus, no SWAT team), and that you care enough not to embarrass him in front of his friends (thus the private talk, after which he is free to tell his buddies about how the hot blonde teacher was coming on to him and whatnot), YOU are in complete control and future interactions will remain on YOUR terms. Make sure he knows that while you CAN have his ass expelled and his life ruined forever, you won’t, because you’re going to try treating him like an adult instead of a criminal, and that you’re secure enough in your position that you can settle things personally without involving anyone else. Do that and I’ll bet dollars to donuts that you will get a) a heartfelt apology, and 2) a lot of new-found respect. Remember, YOU are the calm, collected adult here, going all SWAT team crazy on a gr.9 student is exactly what an insecure teenager who lacked self confidence would do. By demonstrating to the entire class that you are incapable of dealing with, in an non-hysterical adult manner what was probably a prank or a heat of the moment social faux pas, you will never have the respect of the students again, even if you manage to get the offender thrown in jail. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/53 "2006-04-26T15:04:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > “Friendly punches?” From a male student to a female teacher? That is the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while. If it is implied that it is in any way okay to lay hands on staff, there will be big problems. I in no way implied that. But you’ve never heard of a friendly punch? At least among peers? ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58f4c7/32.png) [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/54 "2006-04-26T15:17:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > For example, my senior year I insinuated that my English teacher got into college parties becuase she was easy. Of course I only did so becuase I thought we had a friendly relationship, but what if I was wrong and that crossed a line? Sometimes you cross a line in a relationship, but as long as there are no ill intentions its simply a matter of letting someone know they went too far. But did you, **treis** , ever _hit_ your teacher? Verbally crossing the line |= hitting a teacher. > [@](#): > > Cavalierly? Why? Becuase they didn’t call in the SWAT team to have this kid dragged kicking and screaming from school? Scheduling a meeting with both sides is a perfectly controlled, reasonable response. Absolutely. But sending a kid back to classes after assaulting a teacher is fucking stupid. The kid is already showing signs of not being able to follow the mores and social codes. Kid needs to go home, or serve in school (suspension) at the very least. He also needs the shit scared outta him. He crossed a very important line. Sending the poor widdle, well-meaning, kiddie back to classes sends a message that the administration does not feel that hitting a teacher is all that big of a deal. > [@](#): > > If further punishment is warranted, then it can be doled out after all the facts are in. I mean look at the complete overreaction on this board. Calling the cops, charging him with assault, expelling him. For crying out loud the kid didn’t even leave a mark on our poor widdle dainty teacher. Anyone, when assualted, has the rights to press charges against their attacker. This kid needs to learn that lesson. > [@](#): > > Lets say the people on this board got their wish. The kid marches down to the principal’s office where he is instantly expelled, the cops are immediately called, and he is dragged away in handcuffs facing assault charges. Am I the only one that could see a pit thread bemoaning the cops dragging a kid from school in handcuffs? Or perhaps one decrying the evils of “zero tolerance” and adminstrators that lack common sense. I can’t believe the howls of outrage a measured, reasonable response is elicting in this thread. No, sadly, you probably would not. OTOH, you would not hear me in that fracas, and I normally cannot stand zero-tolerance policies. The reason I stand by this one is that there must needs be as near an absolute line of no (harmful) contact between teachers and students as is possible. (Before someone brings it up, yes, people are allowed to defend themselves, and teachers must break up fights.) > [@](#): > > As to the OP, get a freaking grip. Three punches on the arm, light enough to leave no mark mind you, should not be enough to send a grown adult into tears. It sure as hell should not be enough to knock someone off their A-game an entire day later. It would knock me off of my A-game to know that the administration did not back me up on this one. They have basically said that I was fair game, and all you get is a 20-minute wait in the office. > [@](#): > > Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. > > I hope for the sake of this kid you don’t pull this poor widdle victim act. “Well, um Principal Smith, as you can see I am just a poor widdle helpless blonde woman. This kid whos a full head taller than me, becuase remember I am just a poor widdle 5’2” woman, assaulted me three times in the arm. So visciously, I might add, that it left no marks at all on my dainty widdle skin." > > Get a grip. You know what? We don’t expect to be assaulted in our work. If you decide that you want to work somewhere where you expect to be assaulted, by all means do so. But for you to say that it’s alright for this kid to hit a teacher is just mind-boggling. > [@](#): > > Let me explain to you, and to everyone else in this thread, what charging this kid with assault and expelling him will mean. The first is that he will be forever known as “the kid who got arrested for hitting a teacher.” He will not be remembered as “the kid who got arrested for three light taps on a teacher’s arm.” He will be remembered as the kid who assaulted, i.e. attacked a teacher so harshly he was arrested for it. That is not the image you want to have around the school. > > Second, if he is charged with assault he will be arrested. That means he might be handcuffed by the police, searched, and finger printed. A traumatic experience for anyone, let alone a 12-13 year old boy. In addition to being arrested, he will have to go through the ordeal of a trial. That probably entails hiring an expensive lawyer that his family may or may not be able to afford. Lastly, every college application, job application, scholarship application etc. etc. will have the question “Have you ever been arrested? If so, please explain.” Tough shit. Seriously, tough shit. You need to understand what line was crossed here. This does not sound like a friendly little tap. This does not sound like someone who just “crossed a line.” He was misbehaving and decided to act out by hitting someone who is not allowed to (and thankfully did not) hit back. This is jumping over the line and running. Let me give you a very clear counter-example of someone who actually “just made a mistake.” One of my students brought a machette to school. He had been playing around in the woods over the weekend, put it in his trunk, and forgot about it. For reasons I won’t go into (and were not his fault), some students’ cars were being searched. Cops found his machette; the kid was arrested for having a weapon on school grounds and was facing expulsion charges. This kid made a mistake. (“Dija ever forget? It happened to me; I forgot.”) No one seriously thought this kid was going to go nutz with a machette, but you know what? He broke the law. A couple of us who know him asked our principal what was going to happen and is there anyway of stopping it from happening. The principal asked for, and received, letters on this student’s behalf. As a result, he was not expelled, and the charges were either dropped or slated to be expunged upon turning 18. Can you see the difference between these two students? Without knowing more about the students involved, I’m sure many people would consider the machette kid more of a threat than the punching kid. The similarity is that both made a mistake. But the difference is that one involved actually striking someone. > [@](#): > > That means every college he applies to, every scholarship he wants etc. etc. will get to hear the story of how he was arrested for assaulting his teacher. Now, again remembering that assault does not evoke “three light taps on the arm,” it evokes a much more serious attack, is this the type of person you want in your college or to recieve your scholarship? I don’t think so. > > On to the result of expulsion. Depending on your district, and I imagine for a large one like DC this is the case, expulsion means you are sent to the “alternative” high school. In this alternative high school he will most likely take classes with drug dealers, gang members, people who really attacked someone among other unsavory individuals. Most of them will be counting down the days till they drop out. In that sort of enviroment the education he will recieve is much below the standard in his current high school. > > Normally these alternative high school’s do not have sports teams or any sort of activities. Even beyond simply removing an activity that this kid may enjoy, you have to think what is happening here. You are removing positive influences in his life, and sticking him in a decidedly negative situation. What do you think that does to his chances of avoiding trouble and leading a successful life? I am curious to know how you have obtained this information; much of it is wrong. What you describe does not have to be the case. The kid could be expelled for a year (or the remainder of this academic year) and then be re-admitted. The parents could have the kid placed into another “normal” school in the next town or county. > [@](#): > > If you push for expulsion and file charges against this kid you destroy his reputation, put him through a traumatic experience, cost his family a good sum of money, screw him for college and scholarships, considerably lower the level of his education, introduce him to an extremely negative element, and potentially remove positive influences on his life. Is that what this kid really deserves for three little punches to the arm? Again, I question the veracity of your assertions. > [@](#): > > It would also be a good idea to drop this “I am just a small little woman” bit. Do you know what it is like to work with people larger than you with little to no control of their emotions and be in a position of authority? Being a small woman can make a big difference in how you are perceived and treated as a teacher. Basically, to sum: Your sentiments of not “ruining this kid for life” are fine, but I don’t think that your understanding of the situation is as clear as you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/55 "2006-04-26T15:19:32Z")
> [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > And as to your “get a grip” bullshit: Imagine you work 10-12 hours every day between classtime, conferences, grading, planning. You get a shitty base salary, and you get no overtime. 10-12 hour days? Most college-educated professionals I know (including me) work 10-12 hour days with no overtime. **AND we don’t get summers and long holiday breaks off.** :rolleyes: If she doesn’t like it, tell her to find a new line of work. By the way, I am from the DC area. I am familiar with what starting salaries are for school districts in that area. It’s pretty darn good pay for someone just out of college, and who gets summers and long holiday breaks. ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58f4c7/32.png) [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/56 "2006-04-26T15:23:52Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > If she doesn’t like it, tell her to find a new line of work. > > By the way, I am from the DC area. I am familiar with what starting salaries are for school districts in that area. It’s pretty darn good pay for someone just out of college, and who gets summers and long holiday breaks. Of course, the reciprocal is always true. There is (at least up by me) a shortage of teachers. Right now, there is a huge turn-over in the teacher population going on. From roughly 2000 to 2010, there will be about 50% of the teaching staff throughout the country retiring. If you like the benefits, and can put up with the disadvantages (however you define both of thise terms), you should consider becoming a teacher. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/57 "2006-04-26T15:41:08Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Who do you think has a better idea of the OP’s state of mind - you from reading the thread, or someone who shares a dinner table with her? The OP clearly states that she felt no overt anger towards her at the time of the incident or at any other time. I have only that to go on. I do not share the dinner table (or bed) with the OP. If I did, I might feel significantly more bias in her favour. I claim that my impartiality to the OP is a good thing. YMMV. Again, just to make things clear, I think the kid acted inappropriately. That he needs to be punished in some meaningful way is not at issue. What’s at issue is the lynching mob that has suddently formed here. It’s disproportionate (IMHO) to the actual events as stated. Also, it is my interpretation that the lack of appropriate response from the administration is being shifted to the kid. I.E. They didn’t support me in this so I’m going to make them realize the way in which they failed by escalating this to a legal authority… the unintended consequence being that this kid’s life will be made more miserable that it has to be. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/58 "2006-04-26T15:57:14Z")
> [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > The kid is a discipline case in multiple classes, with multiple teachers. Thing is, this time he actually laid his hands on a teacher, and it sure as hell wasn’t because they “had a friendly relationship.” But do you know why he did it? Three punches to the arm, light enough to not cause any bruising, is not what I would expect from someone that wanted to hurt someone. Perhaps instead of flying off the handle and calling for this kid to be expelled, you should determine _why_ he did this. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > Calling the cops = filing assault charges, as anybody would (and should) do when another attacks them, no matter how lightly. That it is a student and teacher makes it MORE serious, not less. It does not mean forceably removing the student from the building in handcuffs, though whatever the immediate action taken, it should not be send the student back to class like nothing happened while a meeting is scheduled. No, bullshit. People ougth to be adult enough to handle someone hitting them on the arm without calling the cops. If it continues that might be an option, but for a one time occurance going to the cops is way, way over what is called for. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > …where he is instantly suspended, whether by being sent home by administration, or at least held in the office until the end of the day. That is the policy many places elsewhere, and is a perfectly reasonable one. Sure, if thats what happened I wouldn’t get my panties in a twist. However, scheduling a meeting to further determine what happened before any punishment is also a reasonable response. This kid is most likely going to be back in school at some point, whats the difference if its 20 minutes after the incident or 20 hours? > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > Where do you work, **treis**? I’m guessing so long as it isn’t a penal or military institution, you have a reasonable expectation that you will not be assaulted on the job. It’s a disturbing, disgusting thing that **El Perro Fumando** works in a job that should have such an expectation, but in reality actually has a county policy outlining what will be done in event of a student assault. We got rabid monkeys running around here, its pretty tough. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > And as to your “get a grip” bullshit: Imagine you work 10-12 hours every day between classtime, conferences, grading, planning. You get a shitty base salary, and you get no overtime. You get policies (school, county, state, and Federal) that all are aimed solely at making your job all the more difficult to perform. You genuinely care enough to still take that job, and work it to the point where the stress already has a detrimental effect on your health after four months, because you believe education actually is important, you’re a kind idealist who wants to effect what little positive change you can (and you also really have extensive knowledge of your content area and the skill to impart that knowledge on students). Then one of the kids you’re already killing yourself to help comes up to you and hits you. Yeah, it’s not hard physically, but it’s absolute fucking Hiroshima to your emotions. Sorry, all things considered being a teacher is not a bad gig. Compared with what other liberal arts majors do coming out of college, its actually pretty sweet. No, the pay is not great but there are many other benefits. First off are simply the health and other assorted things that are under the heading of “benefits” that many jobs don’t have. Second, teachers get much more vacation compared to other professions. An entry level person is looking at 2-4 weeks of vacation a year. Teacher’s get that much off during the various breaks in the school year, and on top of that they get summers “off”. I realize that there is still stuff to do during the summer but in no other profession could you take a month off during the summer to, say, travel. You say 10-12 hours per day, but thats not out of the ordinary for a salaried position. Nor should she be spending that much time grading or planning. To me, thats a reflection moreso on her poor planning/grading skills than the job. As to the emotional stuff, some people simply aren’t cut out for some jobs. Perhaps she should seek employment elsewhere, or at least talk to a psychiatrist or something. This incident should not have sent her into tears, and it certainly should not be affected by it a day later. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > Fuck you, **treis** for forgiving this shitstain of a student for being the straw to break the camel’s back. Its not the kids fault **El Perro Fumando** is an emotional wreck, incapable of dealing with this incident. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > Will he get expelled for this? Almost certainly not. Because physically it was “just three little hits.” So your alternative school flight of fancy is irrelevant. Irrelevant? Thats exactly what you wanted to have happen to this kid. It could not possibly be more relevent. > [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > Will he get suspended? He’d damn well better, since (and I can’t believe this has to be said again and again because you’re excusing it based on degree. Maybe bolding will help) **he attacked a teacher!** Degree is the afterthought that determines how seriously he should be punished. The fact that he so much as touched a teacher should be enough for at least the minimum suspension. Hell, the dictionary definition of assault goes as far down as “threat of violence.” > > And should charges be brought against him? Yes! **HE ATTACKED A TEACHER!** And it may well come to nothing because, of course, it was “just three little hits” that didn’t bruise. But the mere act of reminding the kid that his actions have solid, real world consequences is important beyond measure. Oh, and he’s a minor, which means that in most jurisdictions, and on most charges, that record is sealed or expunged upon turning 18. It’s chalked up to immaturity, a “youthful transgression” that carries little to no weight at all once he’s applying for jobs. > It would also be a good idea to drop this “blame the victim” bullshit. You’re overreacting, writing in caps and bold simply shows that point. You don’t know _why_ this kid did what he did, which to me is much more important than what he did. > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > But did you, treis, ever hit your teacher? Verbally crossing the line |= hitting a teacher. Verbally crossing the line and physically, in this case, crossing the line is really no different. There is no lasting physical damage from this incident. If he had attacked, as in I am going to do my damnest to hurt you, then I would agree. But I see nothing to indicate that was his intention. In fact I have the exact opposite indication due to the location of the punch, and the lack of severity. > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > Absolutely. But sending a kid back to classes after assaulting a teacher is fucking stupid. The kid is already showing signs of not being able to follow the mores and social codes. Kid needs to go home, or serve in school (suspension) at the very least. He also needs the shit scared outta him. He crossed a very important line. Sending the poor widdle, well-meaning, kiddie back to classes sends a message that the administration does not feel that hitting a teacher is all that big of a deal. The kid is going back to classes eventually, and, presumably, if further punishment is warranted he will recieve that. I just don’t see any benefit in acting before hearing from the teacher exactly what happened. The only message that I get from the principal’s action is “we are going to have a measured and thought out response to this.” > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > You know what? We don’t expect to be assaulted in our work. If you decide that you want to work somewhere where you expect to be assaulted, by all means do so. But for you to say that it’s alright for this kid to hit a teacher is just mind-boggling. I don’t expect to be assaulted anywhere, but if a co-worker came up and hit me in the arm a few times it wouldn’t send me into tears. I wouldn’t call the cops, and I wouldn’t go to HR and file a report. At least, I wouldn’t do so until I found out why my coworker decided to hit me. > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > Tough shit. Seriously, tough shit. > > You need to understand what line was crossed here. This does not sound like a friendly little tap. This does not sound like someone who just “crossed a line.” He was misbehaving and decided to act out by hitting someone who is not allowed to (and thankfully did not) hit back. This is jumping over the line and running. I never said that this kid should get off scot free and everyone should pretend like it happened. All I am saying is that these calls for arrest and expulsion are ridiculously knee-jerk responses, and are way beyond a reasonable response to this incident. > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > Let me give you a very clear counter-example of someone who actually “just made a mistake.” One of my students brought a machette to school. He had been playing around in the woods over the weekend, put it in his trunk, and forgot about it. For reasons I won’t go into (and were not his fault), some students’ cars were being searched. Cops found his machette; the kid was arrested for having a weapon on school grounds and was facing expulsion charges. This kid made a mistake. (“Dija ever forget? It happened to me; I forgot.”) No one seriously thought this kid was going to go nutz with a machette, but you know what? He broke the law. A couple of us who know him asked our principal what was going to happen and is there anyway of stopping it from happening. The principal asked for, and received, letters on this student’s behalf. As a result, he was not expelled, and the charges were either dropped or slated to be expunged upon turning 18. Is this supposed to be a good story? Instead of reasonably responding to the situation by talking to the kid and his teachers, they flat out arrest him. How much money did that cost him in legal fees? How much trauma did facing expulsion and arrest put him through? Sorry, this story is exactly the problem with the responses posters are advocating. > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > I am curious to know how you have obtained this information; much of it is wrong. What you describe does not have to be the case. The kid could be expelled for a year (or the remainder of this academic year) and then be re-admitted. The parents could have the kid placed into another “normal” school in the next town or county. It depends on the school district, where I went to school that was pretty much the routine for expulsion as I understood it. > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > Do you know what it is like to work with people larger than you with little to no control of their emotions and be in a position of authority? Being a small woman can make a big difference in how you are perceived and treated as a teacher. Sorry, I don’t think it matters in this case. Its not as though a teacher in this situation can turn around and pop the kid in the mouth. Even if it does matter, playing the “I am a poor widdle woman” card is nothing more than a cheap emotional appeal. > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > Basically, to sum: Your sentiments of not “ruining this kid for life” are fine, but I don’t think that your understanding of the situation is as clear as you think it is. Perhaps, but almost all of it depends on local school policies. It could be just a simple school change, which I might add is pretty traumatic in itself, or it could be closer to as I described. Regardless, the point is that expulsion and arrest could seriously mess up this kid’s future. It needed to be said exactly what people were advocating. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/59 "2006-04-26T15:57:54Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > 10-12 hour days? Most college-educated professionals I know (including me) work 10-12 hour days with no overtime. > > **AND we don’t get summers and long holiday breaks off.** :rolleyes: > > If she doesn’t like it, tell her to find a new line of work. > > By the way, I am from the DC area. I am familiar with what starting salaries are for school districts in that area. It’s pretty darn good pay for someone just out of college, and who gets summers and long holiday breaks. I guess you fucked up by not becoming a teacher then, sport. I’ve been one for over 20 years and the vacations are nice but if you think that is all there is to the job you are grossly mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201/60 "2006-04-26T16:07:39Z")
In my Taekwondo school, I teach a course called Disruptive Student Management. One of the fundamental concepts is this: Teachers Are Not Assaulted By Students - Ever. If your school management does not take action against this student, then you need to. Call the cops, file charges, and most importantly, don’t back down. I can pretty much guarantee you that, given the reponse by the office that you got, they sound like the sort of jerks that will promptly get all over you for rocking the boat. If they do, you need to make them aware that _they_ were negligent in not taking action and that you have legal recourse against them. I would also suggest that you have the student removed from your class and either placed in another class or a study hall, and that you apply an F for his grade in your class. Actions have consequences, and he needs to learn real quick that bad actions result in bad consequnces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-students-who-punch-their-teachers/354201.md?page=4)