# I Pit the administration of Live Oak High School **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521 "2010-05-06T15:55:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/201 "2010-05-09T02:52:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think it was unlikely that it was PC shit, so much as the attitude (and likely known history) of those particular kids, not the garb, _per se_. I read somewhere that other kids wore American flags who were not sent home. Can we have a cite that the vice principal sent them home because of their attitude? This is a local story for me, and I’ve followed it closely in the news, and I’ve never heard that claim made. > [@](#): > > I’d bet anything that these kids, in particular, were just being little dickwads. I’ve worked in schools. I know how it goes. The administration is not generally trying to be political, but just keep order. The reports are that they were just sitting at lunch, and were approached by the vice principal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/202 "2010-05-09T03:00:58Z")
I don’t buy that for a second. I’ve been a teacher. It doesn’t work that way. None of this happens in a vaccuum. There is always context and history involved. Can I prove it in this case? No. But I know America hating, PC liberal administrators are a dittohead fantasy. I never saw political considerations at all, or even knew anybody else’s politics on the faculty. It’s all about keeping peace and quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/203 "2010-05-09T03:05:09Z")
Just to clarify once more. I’m not saying the adminstration did the right thing. I think they fucked up. I’m just saying I think it’s extremely unlikely that their motivations were racial or political. I think they were trying to avoid a disruption. They made a mistake, but their villification has been way over the top. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/204 "2010-05-09T03:18:36Z")
> [@](#): > > “They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended,” Dominic Maciel, Galli’s friend, said. > The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. Nobody was sent home. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/205 "2010-05-09T03:49:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Natural consequences (i.e, letting the douchebags get their asses kicked after school) would have been better. I also totally agree with this, at least in the legal climate that existed when I was in high school (that is, fighting got you at most a few days suspension, not expelled or charged). ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/206 "2010-05-09T04:01:21Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > Nobody was sent home. Which, for me at least, begs a number of other questions, the first being: how did they just “go home”? They had to be allowed to go home. And that permission comes from the school’s authorities. It looks like they were not allowed to stay in school, which is a fine point, but it could be seen as punishment: they were not allowed access to their classes. Every public school I know of has a closed campus policy: once there, barring illness, family emergencies or disciplinary action, the kids are there for the entire school day. No one get to just go home, even to “avoid punishment”. The school must have given them a choice, which in itself is bizarre. What did the VP say, “wear your shirt inside out or go home?” How is that maintaining discipline or authority? :dubious: I tend to agree with Dio, in that I doubt the motivation of the VP was political correctness, but more likely a “let’s head this off at the pass” type of thing. I said that because it looks like PC-ness run amok, and that is how it was reported. And really, it’s not a misconstruing or mischaracterization to call it that. “It” being the incident and not the motivation. IOW, the VP did the wrong thing, but for the right reasons. I disagree that the context really matters in this case. Old Navy Tshirts are just not inflammatory. The “insult” is all in the perception of the Mexican-American students (and the possibility of such an insult must have resided in the perception of the VP and school administration, otherwise no action would have been attempted). Did the kids say to themselves, “heh, we’ll show THEM” and wear the shirts? Maybe. Probably. But even so, even in HS, in America you’re allowed to be a dick. And you’re allowed to wear an image of the flag, no matter the day. How could you not be, given that you live in the country whose flag it is? Anything else makes no sense, pragmatically or practically (or politically). I can’t believe that as liberal as I am, I have found myself in the last week agreeing with Fox News and Glenn Beck (about the constitutional rights of the Times Square bomber). Hell must be freezing over… ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/207 "2010-05-09T04:16:48Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > No. Why would it? Wasn’t it considered trolling when they showed up wearing a U.S. flag? What’s the difference? If this was group of Japanese-American kids wearing Japanese flags, would the Hispanic kids have been offended? > [@Yookeroo](#): > > I don’t see that it should be considered offensive, but the kids wearing the patriotic clothes sure were trying to be. The administration acted stupidly, but the kids were tools and were trying to be provocative. Dim high school students sure can see why something might offend but you can’t? If these kids were wearing Nazi swastika flags, or even Confederate flags, then I could easily see how it would be offensive. And those flags would probably be offensive on _every_ day of the year, not just 5 May. But they weren’t, they were wearing an American flag. What exactly were they offended by? The flag, or the attitude of the other kids? Was it because the American flag wearers were all together in a group? If a bunch of white kids got together the day before and agreed to wear white tee-shirts in protest of Cinco de Mayo, then certainly their \*intentions \*could be considered provocative, but it would be stupid to send home every student who came to school wearing white shirts. Is the American flag that rarely worn in schools in that town? When I was in high school I had an American flag patch on my backpack for crying out loud. If these Mexican kids are getting offended that a small group was trying to pre-empt their holiday, then I’m sorry, they need to harden the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/208 "2010-05-09T04:20:42Z")
They were American kids. They were all American kids. I also haven’t seen any evidence that the American kids of Mexicano heritage were “offended,” by the American flag, even though the intention was clearly to troll them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/209 "2010-05-09T04:26:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t buy that for a second. I’ve been a teacher. It doesn’t work that way. None of this happens in a vaccuum. There is always context and history involved. Can I prove it in this case? No. But I know America hating, PC liberal administrators are a dittohead fantasy. I never saw political considerations at all, or even knew anybody else’s politics on the faculty. It’s all about keeping peace and quiet. What does that have to do with the boys in question being targeted for their “attitude”? That was the question. > [@fubbleskag](#): > > Nobody was sent home. Oh, please. By that definition, no student is ever sent home. He just prefers to go home over some other punishment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/210 "2010-05-09T04:31:47Z")
> [@gladtobeblazed](#): > > If these kids were wearing Nazi swastika flags, or even Confederate flags, then I could easily see how it would be offensive. And those flags would probably be offensive on _every_ day of the year, not just 5 May. But they weren’t, they were wearing an American flag. Actually, one of the kids was wearing a T-shirt with Confederate flags on it. ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/211 "2010-05-09T04:34:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They were American kids. They were all American kids. > > I also haven’t seen any evidence that the American kids of Mexicano heritage were “offended,” by the American flag, even though the intention was clearly to troll them. That’s some mighty weak trolling. A group of, what was it, five kids wearing American flags. That’s about as weak as it is ever going to get. When I was a kid I had to deal with bullies calling me names like “beaner” or “spic”. Like I said, these kids need to toughen up, because they are soon going to find themselves in a world full of racist rednecks who couldn’t give a shit about them. Making a huge deal out of such petty shit isn’t going to help them. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/212 "2010-05-09T04:53:33Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > That brings up the third rule: don’t go knocking on doors - you lose the element of surprise. > > Gotta go, they are probably sneaking up on me right now. Or not. NO ONE expects the Obama Death Panels! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/213 "2010-05-09T05:05:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What does that have to do with the boys in question being targeted for their “attitude”? That was the question. What do you mean by “targeted?” I’m saying if they were singled out, I’m confident it was for attitude, not dress _per se_. What do you think, that the adminstrators just hate America? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/214 "2010-05-09T05:06:28Z")
> [@gladtobeblazed](#): > > That’s some mighty weak trolling. A group of, what was it, five kids wearing American flags. I seriously doubt that’s all they were doing. In fact, I flat out call bullshit on it. It’s not believable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/215 "2010-05-09T05:10:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I also haven’t seen any evidence that the American kids of Mexicano heritage were “offended,” by the American flag, even though the intention was clearly to troll them. Then you haven’t been reading the [news stories](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36998746/) about this incident: > [@](#): > > Dozens of students at Live Oak High School made a mass and impromptu walk out of class Thursday. They weren’t protesting the ejections and instead were showing their Mexican-American pride. Many support the school’s decision and say they were offended by their classmates’ wardrobe choice. > > \ > > “I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day,” Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. “We don’t deserve to be get disrespected like that…” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/216 "2010-05-09T05:12:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What do you mean by “targeted?” I’m saying if they were singled out, I’m confident it was for attitude, not dress _per se_. What do you think, that the adminstrators just hate America? I mean that you said some kids wore flag clothing and weren’t sent home, but others were. You’re saying it was their “attitude” that was the issue, not the clothing. Give us a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/217 "2010-05-09T05:16:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Then you haven’t been reading the [news stories](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36998746/) about this incident: Sounds like that confirms my suspoicion that the white kids were being little bitches about it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/218 "2010-05-09T05:17:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I mean that you said some kids wore flag clothing and weren’t sent home, but others were. You’re saying it was their “attitude” that was the issue, not the clothing. Give us a cite for that. The cite is that not all kids wearing flags were sent home. Also, it’s just common sense. What do YOU think the motivation was? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/219 "2010-05-09T05:34:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sounds like that confirms my suspoicion that the white kids were being little bitches about it. So, no one was actually offended, but if they were, they were rightly offended. You win either way. Astounding! BTW, the next time Sarah Palin is offended by something, we’ll just assume that the other party was being a little bitch about it. Right? > [@](#): > > The cite is that not all kids wearing flags were sent home. What cite? You haven’t given one. Besides, it’s entirely possible that some kid wore flag clothing and didn’t cross paths with that particular vice principal. > [@](#): > > Also, it’s just common sense. What do YOU think the motivation was. There is nothing in any of the news reports that says one thing about the kids’ “attitude”. I think the vice principal was an idiot. Maybe he really did think there would be a fracas. That is, after all, what he said. ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/220 "2010-05-09T05:37:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I seriously doubt that’s all they were doing. In fact, I flat out call bullshit on it. It’s not believable. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The cite is that not all kids wearing flags were sent home. Also, it’s just common sense. What do YOU think the motivation was? Eh, I guess that answers some of my questions then. It may be that these kids had a history of talking shit and stirring up trouble. I don’t think the solution was to demand they remove their American flag shirts or get sent home though, as that doesn’t address the underlying issues, whatever they may be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=12)