# I Pit the administration of Live Oak High School **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521 "2010-05-06T15:55:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/21 "2010-05-06T17:48:09Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Little shits were gearing up in their shiniest flag-wear to be provocative. Yeah, that’s an assumption, but fuck it, it’s the Pit. It just seems too coincidental that **five** kids just happened to be wearing their flag shirts, bandanas, and tighty-redwhiteandbluies all at the same table, all on _Cinco de Mayo_. Bullshit. Too coordinated. Way too coincidental. Of course they were, so what? Non-stupid people don’t let themselves being baited into doing something ridiculous and indefensible even if they know for a fact they’re being baited. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/22 "2010-05-06T17:50:18Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Those little flag-fappers were setting him up. Maybe not directly, maybe they were just hoping to be rude little cocknockers, but the school should do something when it deems a student’s clothing, words, or acts are “incendiary.” Yes, it should. What it should do is to teach the students who are annoyed by the incendiary behavior about the principles of freedom of speech, individual rights, and the rule of law. The message that aggression, harassment and bullying are not appropriate responses to incendiary behavior is more important than the desire to punish rude little cocknockers for engaging in incendiary behavior. What every other student in the school should have done to the flag-fappers is walk up to them with a big smile and wish them “Happy Cinco de Mayo!” Preferably in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/23 "2010-05-06T17:53:43Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Of course they were, so what? Non-stupid people don’t let themselves being baited into doing something ridiculous and indefensible even if they know for a fact they’re being baited. Right. It’s obvious that these kids were trying to troll other students, but that’s one of those things that high school students do. You send a teacher over to make sure it doesn’t go too far; you don’t make headlines by making a ridiculous ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/24 "2010-05-06T17:57:25Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Of course they were, so what? Non-stupid people don’t let themselves being baited into doing something ridiculous and indefensible even if they know for a fact they’re being baited. Because they were in _school_. Rah rah First Amendment. Let 'em wear it on the sidelines of the CdM parade or to work or to wherever else they want to express their pride in America and love of being an asshole. But in a school environment, the administration has a responsibility to prevent incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/25 "2010-05-06T17:59:14Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > Right. It’s obvious that these kids were trying to troll other students, but that’s one of those things that high school students do. You send a teacher over to make sure it doesn’t go too far; you don’t make headlines by making a ridiculous ruling. That’s pretty much all that needs to be said, I think. Now these asshats are made to look like victims. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/26 "2010-05-06T17:59:56Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > Right. It’s obvious that these kids were trying to troll other students, but that’s one of those things that high school students do. You send a teacher over to make sure it doesn’t go too far; you don’t make headlines by making a ridiculous ruling. That’s exactly what happened. Had they not been dressed as trolls, had they been calling out “Hey spic, go back to Mexico!” a teacher would have told them to cut it the fuck out. If they still kept saying it, they’d get sent to the principals’ office, etc. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/27 "2010-05-06T18:00:57Z")
Yet they continue to let, nay, _require_ that every room have an American flag displayed. Maybe they should have removed them all, in case there was an “incident.” The school is administered by fuckwits. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/28 "2010-05-06T18:03:14Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > But in a school environment, the administration has a responsibility to prevent incidents. Sure, but not at the price of unfairly harassing students who aren’t directly harming anybody else. Suppose a gay student in a conservative Christian-majority school wore a “Rainbow Pride” t-shirt to school on Valentine’s Day or something. Should the administrators tell him to change his shirt to reduce the chances of outraged homophobes beating him up? I think that would be appalling too. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/29 "2010-05-06T18:09:06Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Because they were in _school_. Rah rah First Amendment. Let 'em wear it on the sidelines of the CdM parade or to work or to wherever else they want to express their pride in America and love of being an asshole. But in a school environment, the administration has a responsibility to prevent incidents. True, which is why had they worn shirts that said “Mexicans all suck” the administration would have been correct to take action, even though an adult citizen has every right to wear such a shirt under the First Amendment. But you still have to have actual provocation beyond “knowing” the students had sinister motives for an otherwise innocent action. Punishing a student for wearing an American flag is indefensible because…wait for it…that’s the country we live in. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/30 "2010-05-06T18:09:08Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > That’s exactly what happened. Had they not been dressed as trolls, had they been calling out “Hey spic, go back to Mexico!” a teacher would have told them to cut it the fuck out. If they still kept saying it, they’d get sent to the principals’ office, etc. Shouting racist insults, or even wearing a shirt with racist insults on it, is significantly different from just wearing a shirt with an American flag on it. Even if the wearer’s **intent** to insult is precisely the same. There are certain types of offensive trolling and baiting that you can get away with, and certain types that you can’t. The test should be whether the offensive action is something directly harmful and offensive **in its own right** , and wearing an American flag shirt doesn’t fall into that category. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/31 "2010-05-06T18:13:06Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > That’s exactly what happened. Had they not been dressed as trolls, had they been calling out “Hey spic, go back to Mexico!” a teacher would have told them to cut it the fuck out. If they still kept saying it, they’d get sent to the principals’ office, etc. No, it’s not what happened. They were toeing the line, but unless there’s more to the story, they didn’t cross it. Mass-wearing of American shirts in protest is not that disruptive. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/32 "2010-05-06T18:20:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Having gotten my humor post out of the way, I should note that if the school can point to some legitimate, credible fear that substantial disruption would occur, then under _Tinker_ they can forbid the T-shirts without violating the First Amendment. > > They can’t just say “We think that it might cause trouble,” however. And I have no idea of the state constitution offers greater protection. And even though it’s not directly on point, if we’re talking about the inciting of violence (or even a disruption), I should point out that most everyone has a hard time overcomming _Brandenburg’s_ “imminent” barrier. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/33 "2010-05-06T18:27:24Z")
I don’t know the flag-wearing kids’ “real” motivation was. But… If you read the comments from the Mercury News and San Jose political blogs, it’s clear that some residents have a problem with the city cancelling community events (4th of July celebration, Tapestry Arts Festival, Christmas In The Park), while still making a big deal over Cinco de Mayo celebrations. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/34 "2010-05-06T18:34:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Having gotten my humor post out of the way, I should note that if the school can point to some legitimate, credible fear that substantial disruption would occur, then under _Tinker_ they can forbid the T-shirts without violating the First Amendment. > > They can’t just say “We think that it might cause trouble,” however. And I have no idea of the state constitution offers greater protection. Bong Hits 4 Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/35 "2010-05-06T18:38:13Z")
But once again, here we are assuming we know why the administrators did what they did. There aren’t any comments from the school’s administrators in the article. There is the teensy blurb about how the District doesn’t agree with the school administration’s interpretation of policy. But what policy? Policies on bullying? Policies on decorum? Policies on dress code? Policies on distractions? Of course the media plays this like it’s a politically correct thing. It also prints quotes that support that interpretation. We are to fill-in the blanks with very limited information. We are to assume the kids innocently wore flag shirts. We are to assume motive for what the administrators did. All we have are the students’ side and some unclear stuff from the district thrown in for “balance”. Now, the school administrators should respond to disruptive situations as consistently as they can across the board. Responses to taunts should be the same regardless of the nature of the taunt. The way around this “political correctness run amok” accusation is to be able to demonstrate that the issue is not the flag on the shirt, but the threat of disruption to the school day and general desire to not allow taunting/bullying in the school. All the rest is just a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/36 "2010-05-06T18:47:04Z")
The best analogy I can see for this is being sent home because you’re not wearing green on St. Patrick’s Day. (And my being a non-conformist, I usually don’t wear green on Mar. 17 anyways, simply because I’m a non-conformist (and not because I’m not Irish, or because I don’t own many green clothes (both are true)) And _that_’s scary … ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/37 "2010-05-06T18:48:24Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > And even though it’s not directly on point, if we’re talking about the inciting of violence (or even a disruption), I should point out that most everyone has a hard time overcomming _Brandenburg’s_ “imminent” barrier. I’m not going to try to research this past the following, but California Education Code Section 48950 provides in relevant part: > [@](#): > > a) School districts operating one or more high schools and private secondary schools shall not make or enforce a rule subjecting a high school pupil to disciplinary sanctions solely on the basis of conduct that is speech or other communication that, when engaged in outside of the campus, is protected from governmental restriction by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or Section 2 of Article I of the California Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/38 "2010-05-06T18:48:31Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > The California state constitution does define the American flag as “hate speech”, maybe that would apply? I think that only applies in Berkeley, though. 😉 Man, this is stupid. I actually have several friends who went to Live Oak, but that would’ve been over 20 years ago. It is located in an area that is a lot more Hispanic than it was a generation or so ago (maybe 2 generations). Cinco de Mayo-- another manufactured holiday. Me, I don’t need no stinkin’ excuse to drink. If I wanna drink, I’m gonna drink! > [@dhkendall](#): > > The best analogy I can see for this is being sent home because you’re not wearing green on St. Patrick’s Day. (And my being a non-conformist, I usually don’t wear green on Mar. 17 anyways, simply because I’m a non-conformist (and not because I’m not Irish, or because I don’t own many green clothes (both are true)) > > And _that_’s scary … I used to be a non-conformist. But then I noticed most of my friends were, also, and I didn’t want to be just like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/39 "2010-05-06T18:50:09Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Bong Hits 4 Jesus. Doesn’t Morse stand pretty narrowly on drug use grounds? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/40 "2010-05-06T19:04:43Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > If you read the comments from the Mercury News and San Jose political blogs, it’s clear that some residents have a problem with the city cancelling community events (4th of July celebration, Tapestry Arts Festival, Christmas In The Park), while still making a big deal over Cinco de Mayo celebrations. Reminds me of my college, where classes are still scheduled as normal on Presidents Day (a federal holiday) yet we have the day off on _Cesar Chavez Day_. What the fuck? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=3)