# I Pit the administration of Live Oak High School **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521 "2010-05-06T15:55:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/41 "2010-05-06T19:27:47Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > No, it’s not what happened. They were toeing the line, but unless there’s more to the story, they didn’t cross it. Yeah, I can see how many on the SDMB would be happy enough with that, toeing the line while sqeeing “I didnt cross it, I didnt cross” is common here. For myself, fuck’em. Bunch of knobs went looking to annoy people, now people cry because they were told to fuck off home. Cry me a river. Disrespect is a terrible thing, not only for those it is directed at, but also for those who are seemingly to be taught that you can convey disrespect, just as long as you toe that line. They were at school? Good, send them home, they might learn something. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/42 "2010-05-06T19:29:56Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > The California state constitution does define the American flag as “hate speech”, maybe that would apply? WTF?!?! This is a whoosh, right? > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Because they were in _school_. Rah rah First Amendment. Let 'em wear it on the sidelines of the CdM parade or to work or to wherever else they want to express their pride in America and love of being an asshole. But in a school environment, the administration has a responsibility to prevent incidents. Not so fast – the Supreme Court has ruled that students do NOT lose their First Amendment rights when they enter a school. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/43 "2010-05-06T19:56:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not so fast – the Supreme Court has ruled that students do NOT lose their First Amendment rights when they enter a school. Yes. But the First Amendment rights of students in school are not as extensive as adults in society. This is why **Rhythmdvl** ’s line, “But in a school environment, the administration has a responsibility to prevent incidents,” is precisely in line with Supreme Court precedent. As the Court said in _Tinker_, administrators can prohibit expressive conduct that would, if done by an adult, be protected by the First Amendment, if it involves disruption: > [@](#): > > But conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason - whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior - materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech. So what did you mean when you said, “Not so fast?” It seems to me that **Rhythmdvl** has accurately stated the Supreme Court holding on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/44 "2010-05-06T20:08:25Z")
I wonder if we have all the information or if there’s been some ongoing tension where they felt they needed to intervene. If not, then it’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. Even then, so they wore red white and blue to protest …what? Cinco de Mayo? Why didn’t they wear French flags? My guess is they don’t even know the significance of Cinco de Mayo. Personally I think it’s obvious they were protesting a Mexican holiday because they have a problem with Mexicans, but that’s because I don’t have all the details yet. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/45 "2010-05-06T20:24:00Z")
_But conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason - whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior - materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech._ This is where lawyers get rich. Personally, I’m not seeing how their behavior or dress **materially disrupts** (no pun intended, I’m sure) classwork, since the “incident” occured during a brunch break. There was indication in the article of any “disorder,” either. Seems like there is the basis for a valid lawsuit with a healthy chance of winning. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/46 "2010-05-06T20:26:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > On top of all that, I understand that it isn’t much of a holiday in Mexico, either. Like St. Patrick’s Day, it is only a big thing among expatriates and those of Mexican descent, a celebration of heritage. > > At least the school district has disavowed any support of the administration in this little flap. As a recent “emigre” to San Antonio, Texas, I was surprised as to how muted the Cinco de Mayo celebrations were. I actually heard more about the holiday in Knoxville, TN. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/47 "2010-05-06T20:32:05Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > True, which is why had they worn shirts that said “Mexicans all suck” the administration would have been correct to take action, even though an adult citizen has every right to wear such a shirt under the First Amendment. > > But you still have to have actual provocation beyond “knowing” the students had sinister motives for an otherwise innocent action. **Punishing a student for wearing an American flag is indefensible** because…wait for it…that’s the country we live in. [nitpick] There was no punishment. If the students had returned to school in different clothes, I’m confident they would have been allowed back into classes that day. [/nitpick] I have a feeling that these 5 students are not at the top of the class for academic achievements. I’m thinking that the acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree, or something like that. > [@](#): > > “I think it’s absolutely ridiculous,” Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel’s mom, said. “All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. **They’re expressing their individuality.** ” Really? 😕 That’s what they were doing? :dubious: Expressing their individuality by getting together and dressing alike? :rolleyes: What’s next? Expressing their creativity through demolitions work? Revealing their compassion for animals by clubbing baby seals? Maybe showing support for gays by crashing the Gay Pride Parade with a burning effigy of Matt Shepard? And I agree with **olives** : it sucks that these people can now try and play the victim to a national audience, when the truth is they are just douchebags. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/48 "2010-05-06T20:32:42Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > I wonder if we have all the information or if there’s been some ongoing tension where they felt they needed to intervene. If not, then it’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. > > Even then, so they wore red white and blue to protest …what? Cinco de Mayo? Why didn’t they wear French flags? My guess is they don’t even know the significance of Cinco de Mayo. > Personally I think it’s obvious they were protesting a Mexican holiday because they have a problem with Mexicans, but that’s because I don’t have all the details yet. While not likely, they may also have a problem with the political correctness in the school administration, as well. They may have anticipated an (over)reaction by the school staff. Also: I received a recent mass-chain-email going around showing the image similar to the one shown here: > **[Montebello High School](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montebello_High_School_flag_flipping_incident)** > > Montebello High School is a public high school which is part of the Montebello Unified School District. Founded in 1909, it has an enrollment of approximately 2,600 students in grades 9-12. Its campus is located in Montebello, California, a suburb of Los Angeles. It is named for the city of Montebello. > The Montebello High School mascot is known as Ollie the Oiler, and the school's students and alumni are referred to as Oilers, (a reference to when Montebello was an oil-drilling town during th... Probably prompted by the newly resurrected immigration debates. This type of email may prompt young and (overly) enthusiastic students to stage their own counter protest. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/49 "2010-05-06T20:35:21Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > _But conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason - whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior - materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech._ > > This is where lawyers get rich. Personally, I’m not seeing how their behavior or dress **materially disrupts** (no pun intended, I’m sure) classwork, since the “incident” occured during a brunch break. There was indication in the article of any “disorder,” either. Seems like there is the basis for a valid lawsuit with a healthy chance of winning. The only people who would get rich off your scenario are the various lawyers. Schools don’t need to wait until a disruption happens; they can take steps to ensure that _the disruption they see coming_ never happens. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/50 "2010-05-06T20:38:04Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > While not likely, they may also have a problem with the political correctness in the school administration, as well. They may have anticipated an (over)reaction by the school staff. > > Also: I received a recent mass-chain-email going around showing the image similar to the one shown here: > > [Montebello High School - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montebello_High_School_flag_flipping_incident) Funny thing is, if you know anything about Montebello High, there might be one or two Hispanics enrolled there. Plenty of ethnic Indians and Chinese, though. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/51 "2010-05-06T20:38:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Really? 😕 > > That’s what they were doing? :dubious: > > Expressing their individuality by getting together and dressing alike? :rolleyes: > > What’s next? Expressing their creativity through demolitions work? Revealing their compassion for animals by clubbing baby seals? Maybe showing support for gays by crashing the Gay Pride Parade with a burning effigy of Matt Shepard? > > And I agree with **olives** : it sucks that these people can now try and play the victim to a national audience, when the truth is they are just douchebags. Really? 😕 May I ask why you feel the need to hyperbolise and demonize these kids in this manner? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/52 "2010-05-06T20:39:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The only people who would get rich off your scenario are the various lawyers. Schools don’t need to wait until a disruption happens; they can take steps to ensure that _the disruption they see coming_ never happens. But then they have to defend their decision. With the district not backing them, it looks bad for the VP. Look, I teach. The entire school is a “disruption I see coming.” Unless the VP saw a growing mob of pissed-off Mexicans about to jump the flag-wearers, I don’t think he has a case for “potential disruption.” YMMV. Inevitably we will get more data that shows everybody in this thread to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/53 "2010-05-06T20:41:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Funny thing is, if you know anything about Montebello High, there might be one or two Hispanics enrolled there. Plenty of ethnic Indians and Chinese, though. Yeah. I was trying to find a relatively neutral website to pull the image off of. Google says Whittier High, where something similar happened, is 86% Hispanic. But the only image I can find is on uncomfortably partisan website. My google-foo is weak. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/54 "2010-05-06T20:41:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > WTF?!?! This is a whoosh, right? No, it was a joke. I think your post might a whoosh. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/55 "2010-05-06T20:53:46Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > But then they have to defend their decision. With the district not backing them, it looks bad for the VP. > > Look, I teach. The entire school is a “disruption I see coming.” Unless the VP saw a growing mob of pissed-off Mexicans about to jump the flag-wearers, I don’t think he has a case for “potential disruption.” YMMV. Inevitably we will get more data that shows everybody in this thread to be wrong. Dude, since you teach, I find it hard to believe that you haven’t seen all the stories over the years about people sent home for pink or blue or green hair, for mohawk hair cuts, for piercings, for shirts with slogans that the school admins didn’t like, etc. [Students Sent Home From School For Having Pink Hair For Breast Cancer Awareness](http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/30706289.html) [Honor students sent home after dying hair](http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/30706289.html) [School Sends Teen Wearing ‘Gay’ Shirt Home](http://www.wsmv.com/news/23070849/detail.html) [Florida Students Sent Home After Wearing ‘Islam Is of the Devil’ Shirts](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,542963,00.html) [High School Tells Student to Remove Antiwar Shirt](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0226-04.htm) [Report: Student Sent Home For Violating Piercing Policy](http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2873699/detail.html) All of those stories are just from the past 7 years. Schools have HUGE leeway to decide what is and what is not appropriate attire and behaviour for school grounds. I cannot recall once reading a case where the school was later taken to task for it’s actions in these or any other similar cases. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/56 "2010-05-06T20:57:47Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I’m a pretty liberal guy as well, and I think the school’s actions were indefensibly stupid. Sadly, I’ll be quite surprised if this doesn’t get picked up by conservative pundits as an example of what all liberals secretly want. That’s exactly what they’re saying on the Hannity forums. It’s sad that their assertion that this is what Liberals want makes me feel the need to defend the school’s actions. Shit, I’m a Liberal and, like most here, I think the school is suffering from some serious recto-cranial inversion. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/57 "2010-05-06T20:59:01Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Really? 😕 > > May I ask why you feel the need to hyperbolise and demonize these kids in this manner? Because I didn’t think the situation really made it necessary to elevate it from the most basic levels of scorn and rudeness. BTW, there’s no demonizing in my post. There’s douchebaggizing, but really these kids did that to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/58 "2010-05-06T21:07:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. But the First Amendment rights of students in school are not as extensive as adults in society. > > This is why **Rhythmdvl** ’s line, “But in a school environment, the administration has a responsibility to prevent incidents,” is precisely in line with Supreme Court precedent. As the Court said in _Tinker_, administrators can prohibit expressive conduct that would, if done by an adult, be protected by the First Amendment, if it involves disruption: > > So what did you mean when you said, “Not so fast?” It seems to me that **Rhythmdvl** has accurately stated the Supreme Court holding on the issue. His exact words were: > [@](#): > > Because they were in school. Rah rah First Amendment. Let 'em wear it on the sidelines of the CdM parade or to work or to wherever else they want to express their pride in America and love of being an asshole. But in a school environment, the administration has a responsibility to prevent incidents. It seems he was saying that the First Amendment does NOT apply in school at all. If I was wrong, I appologize, but that is the impression I got. Also, I don’t think wearing an American flag shirt to school is “being an asshole.” (Note: I’m not saying that THESE particular kids aren’t assholes, or that they weren’t doing so to BE assholes. But, the school was still wrong, and they had every right to wear an American flag shirt to school that day. Even if they were being dicks.) ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/59 "2010-05-06T21:15:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > There’s douchebaggizing, but really these kids did that to themselves. Man, we just watched sitcoms and masturbated. They grow up so fast nowadays, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/60 "2010-05-06T21:20:19Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Man, we just watched sitcoms and masturbated. They grow up so fast nowadays, don’t they? Meh. Whatever. I just want them off my lawn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=4)