# I Pit the administration of Live Oak High School **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521 "2010-05-06T15:55:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/161 "2010-05-07T20:32:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > \*Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at UCLA, said the students are protected under California Education Code 48950, which prohibits schools from enforcing a rule subjecting a high school student to disciplinary sanctions solely on the basis of conduct that, when engaged outside of campus, is protected by the First Amendment. > > If the school could point to previous incidents sparked by students who wore garments with American flags, they could argue that the flag is likely to lead to “substantial disruption,” Volokh said. > > “If, for example, there had been fights over similar things at past events, if there had been specific threats made. But if [school officials] just say, ‘Well, we think it might be offensive to people,’ that’s generally speaking not enough.” > > Volokh said the students and their parents likely have a winning case on their hands if they decide to take the matter to court. > > “Oh yes, it’s almost open and shut,” he said.\* > [Link.](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/07/tensions-high-california-high-school-following-flag-flap/) Except that no punishment was meted out to any students in this case. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/162 "2010-05-07T20:48:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Oooh, and next you can hit him with the “where’s your tolerance for intolerance” argument. That’s always a winner, too. If you choose to debate comments I do not make, where is it supposed to end up? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/163 "2010-05-07T21:00:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Which would have found your peers in jail for assault. You’d still be wrong. As the oft-times dumpster-dumpee in the late 90s, that’s not true in most places even today. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/164 "2010-05-07T21:01:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Clearly, many of you are so blinded by the presence of the flag that you cannot see anything else. I await a specific cite from the students who wore the U.S. Flag saying they intended animosity, ill-will, or offense to the Mexican students. Regardless of that fact, too, Giraffe said it well already: > [@Giraffe](#): > > I’m saying that even if the kids were intending a political statement by it, validating that view is a huge mistake, IMO. This goes for both the students and the staff at the school. As long as they’re just wearing the flag, and not saying or doing anything to put down or disrupt the Cinco de Mayo celebration, any politics involved needs to be left unspoken. A passive expression of identity should not be engaged in an active political fashion. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Except that no punishment was meted out to any students in this case. One could argue that getting sent home was an implicit punishment. One could also easily argue that not formally punishing those students was the only wise move the school made, given that they didn’t actually commit any wrongdoings. Let me be absolutely clear, too–my position is the same if some of the kids wear Mexican flags on the Fourth or Memorial Day or any other US-Patriotic holiday–or any other day of the year. It’s a shirt. It’s not even a gang symbol, it’s a freakin’ national flag. Cope. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/165 "2010-05-07T21:50:54Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I await a specific cite from the students who wore the U.S. Flag saying they intended animosity, ill-will, or offense to the Mexican students. I think “defiance” is the word here. If the school is being Mexicanized to the point where it’s being de-Americanized, then that compelled these students to draw a lie inthe sand and and demonstrate that this is still America. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/166 "2010-05-07T22:04:29Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > If you choose to debate comments I do not make, where is it supposed to end up? That wasn’t a debate; that was just me pointing out your ridiculous argument tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/167 "2010-05-07T22:16:42Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > One could argue that getting sent home was an implicit punishment. One could argue that, but one would be wrong. There was no punishment meted out. Come on, admit it. NO punishment happened. > [@Zeriel](#): > > One could also easily argue that not formally punishing those students was the only wise move the school made, given that they didn’t actually commit any wrongdoings. And if there had been a fight and someone had been hurt or even killed? What would be the wise move that the school made then? Again, most people would not have their panties in a bunch about this if it didn’t involve the USA flag. I know this because most people had no problems with any of the other students sent home for inappropriate dress, hair, etc. And some people will argue, like **Giraffe** , that the flag cannot, under any circumstances, be an inflammatory symbol, but they are wrong. Context matters, and in this case the school admins did what they were empowered to do, entrusted to do: they acted to ensure the physical safety of all the students, teachers, and employees of the school. If wearing the flag isn’t a problem on CdM, then the other stuff I’ve linked to should have incensed people as well. I hardly think that pink hair to show support for Breast Cancer Awareness would have lead to even one slap, let alone a riot, but I didn’t see anyone bitching about that situation. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/168 "2010-05-07T22:54:55Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > One could argue that, but one would be wrong. There was no punishment meted out. Come on, admit it. NO punishment happened. What a load of bullshit. Of course they were punished. They were sent home (for doing nothing wrong). :rolleyes: > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Again, most people would not have their panties in a bunch about this if it didn’t involve the USA flag. I know this because most people had no problems with any of the other students sent home for inappropriate dress, hair, etc. The key word is “inappropriate”. In this country the American flag is never inappropriate. One can demean it, but its mere presence is never inappropriate. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > And some people will argue, like **Giraffe** , that the flag cannot, under any circumstances, be an inflammatory symbol, but they are wrong. Context matters, and in this case the school admins did what they were empowered to do, entrusted to do: they acted to ensure the physical safety of all the students, teachers, and employees of the school. If it is an inflammatory symbol the problem lies with those who view it that way, not with the flag itself. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/169 "2010-05-07T22:58:19Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I think “defiance” is the word here. If the school is being Mexicanized to the point where it’s being de-Americanized, then that compelled these students to draw a lie inthe sand and and demonstrate that this is still America. I think you’re right, that’s exactly it. And good for them for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/170 "2010-05-07T22:59:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > One could argue that, but one would be wrong. There was no punishment meted out. Come on, admit it. NO punishment happened. > > And if there had been a fight and someone had been hurt or even killed? What would be the wise move that the school made then? > > Again, most people would not have their panties in a bunch about this if it didn’t involve the USA flag. I know this because most people had no problems with any of the other students sent home for inappropriate dress, hair, etc. > > And some people will argue, like **Giraffe** , that the flag cannot, under any circumstances, be an inflammatory symbol, but they are wrong. Context matters, and in this case the school admins did what they were empowered to do, entrusted to do: they acted to ensure the physical safety of all the students, teachers, and employees of the school. > > If wearing the flag isn’t a problem on CdM, then the other stuff I’ve linked to should have incensed people as well. I hardly think that pink hair to show support for Breast Cancer Awareness would have lead to even one slap, let alone a riot, but I didn’t see anyone bitching about that situation. They were sent home, and threatened with worse. While no final punishment hit, that is only thanks to quick backpedaling by the school. If there was a fight, I expect both sides to get suspended (or whatever the typical punishment is). As for the pink hair - the school should have backed off. However, at least in that case the school’s policy DID specifically ban hair dyeing. If you want to start a thread on that, I will happily state that the school should have figured a way around their official policy. In this current case - the issue is that kids wearing an American flag were sent home, but the kids wearing a Mexican flag were not. If you are going to ban flags - then ban them all. This was selective punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/171 "2010-05-07T23:02:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What a load of bullshit. Of course they were punished. They were sent home (for doing nothing wrong). :rolleyes: No, they weren’t punished. WERE NOT. It doesn’t matter how many times you say they were, they were not. > [@magellan01](#): > > The key word is “inappropriate”. In this country the American flag is never inappropriate. One can demean it, but its mere presence is never inappropriate. > > If it is an inflammatory symbol the problem lies with those who view it that way, not with the flag itself. Or with those who present it as an inflammatory symbol. Which these 5 kids did. Which is what they did wrong. Which is why they were sent home. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/172 "2010-05-07T23:07:55Z")
Bullshit. Inflammatory? It’s the fucking flag of this country! It is **never** inappropriate. If they got nailed for wearing it, then every mother-loving _other_ student at that school wearing a flag or national colors should have been sent home as well. _Especially_ if they were wearing the flag of another country. It’s all or nothing. Either you let students display pride in their heritage without national restrictions or you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/173 "2010-05-07T23:09:44Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > If you choose to debate comments I do not make, where is it supposed to end up? You made a good point in the post in question, and **Snoboy** just tried to weasel out of it. Common stuff. By the way, I also liked you’re post about your mother-in-law. Used to be, that attitude was so prevalent and common sensical as to be assumed. But now we have the idiot VP at the school and dolts like **SnoBoy** who think that America does not deserve a special place even within its own borders. I admit that its hard to conjure such an absurd and asinine position, but the stupid is strong in that boy. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/174 "2010-05-07T23:15:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, they weren’t punished. WERE NOT. It doesn’t matter how many times you say they were, they were not. Were to. If they weren’t punished, they wouldn’t have been sent home. See how easy that is? > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Or with those who present it as an inflammatory symbol. Which these 5 kids did. Which is what they did wrong. Which is why they were sent home. No. They did NOTHING wrong. NOTHING, you mental midget. Do you think they were sent home as a reward for making the VP look like the dumb fuck he is? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/175 "2010-05-07T23:17:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Bullshit. Inflammatory? It’s the fucking flag of this country! It is **never** inappropriate. If they got nailed for wearing it, then every mother-loving _other_ student at that school wearing a flag or national colors should have been sent home as well. _Especially_ if they were wearing the flag of another country. It’s all or nothing. Either you let students display pride in their heritage without national restrictions or you don’t. Correct. You could possibly _argue_ that one might curtail the presence of flags from other countries (which I would NOT support), but the flag of the home nation is NEVER inappropriate or inflammatory. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/176 "2010-05-07T23:43:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Were to. If they weren’t punished, they wouldn’t have been sent home. See how easy that is? I see how easy it is for you to be wrong. All you have to do is open your mouth or start typing and BINGO! you’ve said something stupid and incorrect. Just like in every post of yours in this thread. There was no punishment meted out to the 5 kids. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/177 "2010-05-08T01:10:43Z")
Okay, so if being pulled out of class and sent home against their will _isn’t_ “punishment,” what is it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/178 "2010-05-08T01:57:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I see how easy it is for you to be wrong. All you have to do is open your mouth or start typing and BINGO! you’ve said something stupid and incorrect. > > Just like in every post of yours in this thread. > > There was no punishment meted out to the 5 kids. Not only rock dumb, but deluded, unconvincing and unaware, to boot. Yes, the stupid is powerful within you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/179 "2010-05-08T01:59:11Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Okay, so if being pulled out of class and sent home against their will _isn’t_ “punishment,” what is it? ::more crickets:: SnoBoy? Boy? BOY? ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521/180 "2010-05-08T02:24:49Z")
While I don’t agree with **Bo** that the students were doing anything wrong, I believe the article stated that they voluntarily went home to avoid punishment, not as punishment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-administration-of-live-oak-high-school/538521.md?page=10)