# I Pit the Bush Administration for Torturing Innocent People **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364 "2006-09-20T01:55:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/1 "2006-09-20T01:55:17Z")
[I don’t have the energy to do it justice, but somebody’s gotta do it](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/18/AR2006091800883.html): > [@](#): > > TORONTO, Sept. 18 – Canadian intelligence officials passed false warnings and bad information to American agents about a Muslim Canadian citizen, after which U.S. authorities secretly whisked him to Syria, where he was tortured, a judicial report found Monday. > > The report, released in Ottawa, was the result of a 2 1/2-year inquiry that represented one of the first public investigations into mistakes made as part of the United States’ “extraordinary rendition” program, which has secretly spirited suspects to foreign countries for interrogation by often brutal methods. > > The inquiry, which focused on the Canadian intelligence services, found that agents who were under pressure to find terrorists after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, falsely labeled an Ottawa computer consultant, Maher Arar, as a dangerous radical. They asked U.S. authorities to put him and his wife, a university economist, on the al-Qaeda “watchlist,” without justification, the report said. > > Arar was also listed as “an Islamic extremist individual” who was in the Washington area on Sept. 11. The report concluded that he had no involvement in Islamic extremism and was on business in San Diego that day, said the head of the inquiry commission, Ontario Justice Dennis O’Connor. > > Arar, now 36, was detained by U.S. authorities as he changed planes in New York on Sept. 26, 2002. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan – where he never has been – and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released, the Canadian inquiry commission found. > > O’Connor concluded that “categorically there is no evidence” that Arar did anything wrong or was a security threat. It’s a shame that quisling Congresspersons would even consider denying Bush the power to continue torturing people. :rolleyes: What _really_ scares me is that, after years and years of increasingly appalling atrocities, I can’t even get pissed about something like this anymore. Call it outrage fatigue, or something like that. All I know is that I’m tired of hearing about this shit, and I want it to stop. I want to be proud of my country again someday. It may be awhile. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/2 "2006-09-20T02:29:07Z")
[Gonzales defence is remarkably lame:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/19/AR2006091901223.html) > [@](#): > > U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, asked to comment about the report, said: “Mr. Arar was deported under our immigration laws. He was initially detained because his name appeared on terrorist lists; he was deported according to our laws.” > He said the United States always seeks to assure itself that anybody it sends out will not be tortured. Who could ever imagine that the Hezbollah backing Syrians would mistreat Canadian citizens dropped in their lap by the CIA? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/3 "2006-09-20T02:36:51Z")
Goddamned whiney librul. We can anticipate that it comes down to one of the following four bits of Cognitive Dissonance: 1. Nobody could have ever anticipated that sending someone to Jordan and Syria would lead them to be tortured 2. The USA didn’t do it, the Jordanians/Syrians did it. Obviously we never would have allowed such a thing to happen\*. 3. Hell yes we did it, because he was a fucking terrorist. Even if he wasn’t, he was probably a _terrorist sympathiser_ and he’s lucky we didn’t just put a bullet in the back of his neck and dump his ass in a river 4. He was tortured by the USA through proxy. We only torture the guilty, and it’s not torture, it’s ‘rendition’. Therefore, he was a terrorist. Stay tuned for **John Mace** ’s latest post in his acclaimed “I’m not a Dubya apologist, now watch as I apologize for Dubya in my eighth straight post” series - as soon as the instapundits tell him what to think! -Joe \*pending Congressional approval of George “I wanna torture, lemmelemmelemmepleasethey’reonlyheathensandniggersanyways” Bush’s latest “plan”, of course. In that case it’ll be, "Fuck yes we did. And the American people approve of it. Now kiss my mandate and pass the nipple electrodes. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/4 "2006-09-20T02:44:31Z")
Its not torture. Its “alternative interrogation techniques”. Don’t you feel better now? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/5 "2006-09-20T03:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Stay tuned for **John Mace** ’s latest post in his acclaimed “I’m not a Dubya apologist, now watch as I apologize for Dubya in my eighth straight post” series - as soon as the instapundits tell him what to think! [/QUOTE] **Go fuck yourself you ignorant asshole.** I do not condone this type of action. This guy is a Canadian citizen and we had no business sending him anywhere other than Canada if we felt we had to deport him from the US. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/6 "2006-09-20T03:29:53Z")
I was pretty disgusted when I heard about this case more than a year ago, but it’s only the tip of the iceberg, AFAIK. Doing this somewhat from memory, but there apparently at least 14,000 people being held incommunicado as presumed terrorist combatants at US-controlled prisons worldwide, at which more than 90 deaths have been reported, some of which apparently have occurred during overenthusiastic “alternative interrogation” sessions. I have no idea how many may be innocent, but considering that about half (IIRC) of the persons held at Guantanamo, home of the supposed “worst of the worst” according to our Secretary of Tor- er, Defense, have been released without charge, it seems not unreasonable to think that as many as half of these anonymous prisoners may be confined for no particular reason other than bureaucratic inertia, or worse, to keep them from speaking out about their ill treatment as long as possible. This is why I beleive any arguments about the efficacity of torture of, and whether to allow rights of habeus corpus for, persons presumed to be terrorists, are off the mark. These sorts of things must not be allowed, simply because inevitably, persons who are guilty of nothing are put through vile abuses and have their lives utterly ruined. What’s even more disgusting, frankly, is that I have yet to hear of a single case where US officials have provided any kind of compensation, or even a simple apology, to any of the persons who they’ve imprisoned for years and then released without charge or comment. If such has been done, I’d be happy to hear it, but even if some sort of compensation or apologies have been delivered, the practice is apparently is not widespread, and would not come close to real justice for the persons abused in this way. What kind of country that supposedly cherishes freedom and fairness locks thousands of people up for years for no good reason, then denies all responsibility for its mistakes upon their release? This is as good an example of evil as anything else I can think of. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the last five years should rightly go down as one of the most shameful periods in our country’s history. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/7 "2006-09-20T03:42:40Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] What’s even more disgusting, frankly, is that I have yet to hear of a single case where US officials have provided any kind of compensation, or even a simple apology, to any of the persons who they’ve imprisoned for years and then released without charge or comment. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Departing detainees receive a Koran, a jean jacket, a white T-shirt, a pair of blue jeans, high-top sneakers, a gym bag of toiletries, and a pillow and blanket for the flight home. [Ten Facts About Guantanamo](http://www.defenselink.mil/home/dodupdate/documents/GuantanamoBay_Top10_ATTACHMENT2.doc) (Word Document, released by the Pentagon Sept. 14, 2006) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/8 "2006-09-20T03:48:48Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] I have no idea how many may be innocent, but considering that about half (IIRC) of the persons held at Guantanamo, home of the supposed “worst of the worst” according to our Secretary of Tor- er, Defense, have been released without charge, it seems not unreasonable to think that as **many as half** of these anonymous prisoners may be confined for no particular reason other than bureaucratic inertia, or worse, to keep them from speaking out about their ill treatment as long as possible. [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. From [here](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/in_american_hands) > [@](#): > > Many say they were caught up in U.S. military sweeps, often interrogated around the clock, then released months or years later without apology, compensation or any word on why they were taken. Seventy to 90 percent of the Iraq detentions in 2003 were “mistakes,” U.S. officers once told the international Red Cross. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/9 "2006-09-20T03:52:30Z")
I remember my social studies (history, geography, etc.) teachers explaining that in dictatorships and the dreaded communist countries, people were disappeared in the dead of night and taken away to some secret place. Their families were never told why or where they were. Dissidents were tortured, and once they signed a fake confession, they were paraded through a “show trial” where the defendant had no rights and no chance for defense. Those things didn’t happen here. We are a decent, moral country, and we have checks and balances to keep such abuses from happening. That was a long time ago, but we hoped it would always be true. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/10 "2006-09-20T03:58:28Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Stay tuned for **John Mace** ’s latest post in his acclaimed “I’m not a Dubya apologist, now watch as I apologize for Dubya in my eighth straight post” series - as soon as the instapundits tell him what to think! [/QUOTE] Dude, i’m not sure if you have some history with **John Mace** that i’m unaware of, but i strongly disagree with your characterization of him as an unreflective apologist for Bush. I’m an unapologetic leftist, and i disagree with **John** on quite a lot of issues, but i’ve never seen him say anything that would lead me to believe that he supports the sort of actions described in the OP. And he’s been very critical of Bush and the administration on numerous occasions. There are some folks on this Board who might fit your characterization, but i don’t think he’s one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/11 "2006-09-20T04:04:25Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Stay tuned for **John Mace** ’s latest post in his acclaimed “I’m not a Dubya apologist, now watch as I apologize for Dubya in my eighth straight post” series - as soon as the instapundits tell him what to think! [/QUOTE] Now THAT is a laugh. Let me know when you have an original thought, also known as “one you didn’t swipe from something you read on Kos today”. Jesus, talk about the pot and the fucking kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/12 "2006-09-20T04:11:23Z")
What i find really impressive is these talking heads in their wonderful suits looking the camera in the eye and saying things like 'You know Cokie, extraction of fingernails is a common medical treatment. I did for my cat. And do you know why I did it to my cat? Out of love. Now how can you call that torture?" They lie, and they lie very very well. They say the most outrageous things so reasonably. Further, nobody seems to call them on it. The interviewer tries to be neutral. It is really scary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/13 "2006-09-20T04:23:01Z")
Hey, the guy was Canadian! See a lot of them in Minnesota, _scary_ bunch, lemme tell ya! ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/14 "2006-09-20T04:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Hey, the guy was Canadian! See a lot of them in Minnesota, _scary_ bunch, lemme tell ya! [/QUOTE] Oh, you betcha. Frostbacks! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/15 "2006-09-20T05:04:09Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] … “one you didn’t swipe from something you read on Kos today”… [/QUOTE] What is this “Kos” of which you speak? My people do not know of this thing, this “Kos”… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/16 "2006-09-20T05:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What is this “Kos” of which you speak? [/QUOTE] It’s a Farsi term. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/17 "2006-09-20T05:46:49Z")
I see. So Dave thinks we’re Canadian? I think I may have a clue what’s happening to friend **John** , who seems to be the second most misunderstood poster extant. I take him at his word on his opinions. But what happens is… Some poster comes stomping in…I dunno, some notorious lefty type, let’s just call him **'loki** (You know, most of your Norse gods were pretty uptight, but one was low-key…) And **'loki** starts in on how he’s got videotape, affidavits, still photos, signed confessions written in blood, notorized by God Almighty… to the effect that GeeDubya snatched a puppy from a little girl, skinned that puppy alive, roasted and ate it… All expressed with the appropriate degree of high dudgeon and low humor. As one might expect, it draws a predictable thread of disapproval, dismay, and revulsion. As well it should. But then along comes **John** … And he has some evidence, perhaps, that the last charge is questionable, there is no forensic evidence of the Prez actually, uh, chowing down. Several pages are expended on this detail, wrangling over the admissability of the evidence, the precise definition of the act, etc. All of which pursued with John’s persistent…nay, _relentless_… determination to be even-handed (if it kills us _all_!) Commendable. Exasperating, but commendable. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/18 "2006-09-20T06:28:47Z")
Why do they hate us? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/19 "2006-09-20T06:33:22Z")
Sure a good thing this War on Terra thing can be fought by unilateral military force. Otherwise, we might need friends and allies. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364/20 "2006-09-20T08:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=Lama Pacos] Why do they hate us? [/QUOTE] Who? Canadians, Syrians, or the Bushies? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-bush-administration-for-torturing-innocent-people/373364.md?page=2)