# I pit the cops who openly applauded police abuse today **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340 "2017-07-28T19:00:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/261 "2017-08-01T22:16:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What is it with everyone in this thread needing me to remind them of things I’ve discussed with them several times? You are either very forgetful or very needy. If you answered my question, I missed it. Feel free to point it out to me. Once again, why do you assert things as factual that you couldn’t possibly know are true – in this case, that Rice tried to threaten police officers? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/262 "2017-08-01T22:42:11Z")
It wouldn’t be bad to just admit it, if it’s what you believe - the occasional police officer who murders someone is the price society has to pay for policing in general and it’s overall a good deal for society. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/263 "2017-08-01T22:45:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > From Trump, I expect this. But I expect more of the police. Good heavens why? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/264 "2017-08-01T23:06:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It wouldn’t be bad to just admit it, if it’s what you believe - the occasional police officer who murders someone is the price society has to pay for policing in general and it’s overall a good deal for society. I would think that any rational person would agree with this. It’s literally impossible to screen for all bad apples; some will get into the barrel no matter what. The point of disagreement would come when you talk about whether we should make any effort at all to punish the crimes of murderous policemen and whether efforts to that regard are possible to implement or could possibly be an effective deterrent against future police misconduct. Well, that and you find some people who think it never happens because shooting a socially disadvantaged person isn’t a bad thing. Those people exist too. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/265 "2017-08-01T23:21:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It wouldn’t be bad to just admit it, if it’s what you believe - the occasional police officer who murders someone is the price society has to pay for policing in general and it’s overall a good deal for society. I honestly thought that went without saying, but that’s not what this whole argument is about. This is about people falsely claiming that certain cops have committed murder when they haven’t. Oh, and something about Donald Trump. As to the point you make, if we want to maintain some sort of order in society, we need to have some way to enforce that. And no matter what safeguards you put in place, some people will abuse the power they are given to enforce that, whether it’s the sort of petty brutality Trump endorsed, or whether it’s murder. Any time there’s a reasonable suspicion someone has abused their position, it should be investigated, and if sufficient evidence is found, they should be tried and convicted. Where I seem to differ from many people in this thread is in thinking that said evidence should exist before conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/266 "2017-08-01T23:25:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you answered my question, I missed it. Feel free to point it out to me. Once again, why do you assert things as factual that you couldn’t possibly know are true – in this case, that Rice tried to threaten police officers? The officer who shot him claimed that was the case, and the grand jury that saw the rest of the evidence believed him. It’s the most likely situation. Were it not, there would have been a trial. It’s not proven beyond reasonable doubt, but it doesn’t need to be, as he’s not being accused of a crime. We have discussed this at length in other threads. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/267 "2017-08-01T23:36:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The officer who shot him claimed that was the case, and the grand jury that saw the rest of the evidence believed him. It’s the most likely situation. Were it not, there would have been a trial. > > It’s not proven beyond reasonable doubt, but it doesn’t need to be, as he’s not being accused of a crime. > > We have discussed this at length in other threads. No, the officer claimed that Rice made a movement that he took as threatening. The officer didn’t say “Rice tried to threaten me”. Those are very different things. The officer didn’t go so far as to try and ascribe evil motives to the child he killed – why would you? It’s not hard to be specific and accurate such that one doesn’t ascribe evil motives to children for no purpose whatsoever. You can be entirely accurate in describing the facts of the case without pretending to know that the child was thinking evil threatening thoughts when he did whatever he did. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/268 "2017-08-01T23:45:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s the most likely situation. Were it not, there would have been a trial. You know, I honestly feel you catch a lot more crap than you deserve, so I feel bad pointing out that this is the most naive thing I think I’ve ever read here. But I’m going to anyway, because this is really the most fucking naive thing I’ve ever read here. Do you believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny too? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/269 "2017-08-02T00:16:28Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > You know, I honestly feel you catch a lot more crap than you deserve, so I feel bad pointing out that this is the most naive thing I think I’ve ever read here. > > But I’m going to anyway, because this is really the most fucking naive thing I’ve ever read here. Do you believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny too? If it hadn’t received so much publicity, and we hadn’t heard from members of the grand jury, I might well agree. But it’s clear in this case there was a thorough investigation that didn’t find enough evidence to go to trial. If the grand jury had thought there was a reasonable chance of conviction, they would have sent it to trial. As they didn’t, it’s pretty clear that they didn’t think it likely the officer was lying when he said he believed his life was in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/270 "2017-08-02T00:20:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, the officer claimed that Rice made a movement that he took as threatening. The officer didn’t say “Rice tried to threaten me”. Those are very different things. The officer didn’t go so far as to try and ascribe evil motives to the child he killed – why would you? > > It’s not hard to be specific and accurate such that one doesn’t ascribe evil motives to children for no purpose whatsoever. You can be entirely accurate in describing the facts of the case without pretending to know that the child was thinking evil threatening thoughts when he did whatever he did. Perhaps you can cite me calling his thoughts or motives “evil”? Rice appeared to be reaching for his gun - that’s a threat. It may have been unintentional, but as he’s not being accused of anything that’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/271 "2017-08-02T05:12:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Nah, I’m gonna stick with many. A few cops that sucked at their job would make headlines once or twice a year. > > Keep in mind, we’re not talking about cops who kill, or at least, not just about cops who kill, we are talking about cops who abuse their position for either personal gain or vengeance upon some “low-life scum” that they deem below them. > > Cops who[plant evidence](http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/20/us/baltimore-cop-allegedly-planting-evidence/index.html), cops who will [beat you and arrest you for saying something they didn’t like](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/04/brutal-video-shows-white-officer-violently-arresting-black-man-sitting-on-his-mothers-porch/?utm_term=.ea8a117cc667), cops who [rape the people that called them for help](https://newsone.com/1854105/officer-ladmarald-cates-rapes-single-mother-in-milwaukee-after-she-calls-911-for-help/), cops who [shove screwdrivers up a suspect’s ass](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/2-cops-sodomized-man-screwdriver-working-article-1.2820609?utm_content=bufferf56cd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw). I could go on, but I am getting depressed trying to sort through all the different police abuse scandals. These make up more than just “a few”. They are psychopathic cowardly bullies who hide behind their badge and their gun to live out their fantasies of being the man in charge, the strong man, the authoritarian. They don’t need trump’s encouragement to abuse their charges, they are already right there on that page. > > That the “vast majority” do not participate in such antics makes no difference. If they turn a blind eye towards their fellow cop’s behavior, they are no better themselves. I very much doubt that the vast majority of cops have turned in their fellow cops for their misdeeds. I completely agree with this. It is further bullshit that they get extra laws written to give them additional protection. Why is assulting a cop a different crime than assulting anyone else? Also cops convicted of any felony should have mandatory life terms in general population. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/272 "2017-08-02T05:40:57Z")
No. Cruel and unusual, and by design. It would be as bad as letting someone into general population and then hanging a child molester jacket on him. We do stuff like that in retribution, we degrade ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/273 "2017-08-02T05:45:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Perhaps you can cite me calling his thoughts or motives “evil”? Rice appeared to be reaching for his gun - that’s a threat. It may have been unintentional, but as he’s not being accused of anything that’s irrelevant. Anyone defending the murder of Tamir Rice is so devoid of common sense and humanity as to baffle us. Facts: Cops raced up to a kid known to have “a gun, possibly a toy.” They stopped the car almost as close to the kid as they could, got out of the car and immediately shot him dead. During the few milliseconds between the cops opening their doors and pulling their triggers, Tamir’s arms probably moved a bit — that’s normal for someone who’s been startled. Whatever he moved his arms for, we know the purpose wasn’t to kill the cops: _His gun was a toy, remember?_ Had the cops treated Tamir’s life as worth as much as that of a rabid dog, they could have stopped their car far enough away to feel safe and tried talking to him. They didn’t. Instead they acted exactly as they would have acted had their mission been to kill Tamir as quickly as possible. Cops have a right to feel afraid and to react to their fear. In this case the cops placed themselves in a “fearful” situation deliberately: They parked their car so close to the poor lad that “they had no choice” but to kill him as soon as they opened their doors. I think SteophBot’s programmers are to be commended: many Dopers probably think he’s a real human being. But his posts on Tamir Rice, like the famous scene with the replicant in _Blade Runner,_ give it away. @ **SteophBot** — which part of this didn’t you understand? What advice would you give to your programmers, when they’re preparing **SteophBot Version 2** , so that in matters like Tamir Rice you can fool Dopers into thinking you have humane values? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/274 "2017-08-02T06:11:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The officer who shot him claimed that was the case, and the grand jury that saw the rest of the evidence believed him. It’s the most likely situation. Were it not, there would have been a trial. This is the kind of shit that gets to me. The blank-check nonsensical naivete. Not even of the infallibility of a jury, but of a grand jury, an entity [known to have immense bias in favor of the police](https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/). You trust the system as borderline infallible, even when [if you opened your damn eyes, you could see it failing right in front of you](https://vimeo.com/124336782). You’re like the young earth creationist who responds to evidence of evolution by saying, “But God is right, therefore that isn’t actually evidence of evolution.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/275 "2017-08-02T06:57:44Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Also cops convicted of any felony should have mandatory life terms in general population. Why do you specify “in general population”? Is it because you get off on extra-judicial (aka, illegal) punishment? If so, then how are you all that different from someone who carried out extra-judicial punishment? And, of course, there’s the whole “how to reward the prisoner dispensing prison ‘justice’” bit. And why mandatory life? Have you never heard of punishment that fits the crime? Your concept, such as it is, as **elucidator** pointed out, cruel and unusual. Care to rethink and amend your comment or do you prefer to look like an unthinking and immoral jackass? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/276 "2017-08-02T07:01:37Z")
[QUOTE=k9bfriender;20384653 Cops who[plant evidence] ([http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/20/us/baltimore-cop-allegedly-planting-evidence/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/20/us/baltimore-cop-allegedly-planting-evidence/index.html)), cops who will [beat you and arrest you for saying something they didn’t like](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/04/brutal-video-shows-white-officer-violently-arresting-black-man-sitting-on-his-mothers-porch/?utm_term=.ea8a117cc667), cops who [rape the people that called them for help](https://newsone.com/1854105/officer-ladmarald-cates-rapes-single-mother-in-milwaukee-after-she-calls-911-for-help/), cops who [shove screwdrivers up a suspect’s ass](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/2-cops-sodomized-man-screwdriver-working-article-1.2820609?utm_content=bufferf56cd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw). [/QUOTE] Some interesting quotes from those articles > [@](#): > > Chief Assistant District Attorney Howard Neumann did not return a call from The Post on Monday, but he told the Greensboro News & Record last week that Cole did not commit a crime. Law enforcement officers are entitled to use whatever amount of force they deemed necessary to arrest someone they believed committed a crime, Neumann told the paper. > > “To charge him would be a violation of my role as a prosecutor,” Neumann said. So it is legal for a cop to beat the shit out of someone sitting on a porch if the cop thinks it’s necessary? > [@](#): > > She took her story to the Milwaukee District Attorney’s office. A prosecutor subsequently wrote, “While I did find the victim’s version of events credible, I did not believe that her testimony would be strong enough to successfully prosecute Officer Cates.” Note that was after a rape kit was done and the Officer told his bosses three different stories. > [@](#): > > Officers Scott Korhonen and Gerald Lodwich are still employed by the Chicago Police Department to this very day. Lodwich made $90,618 last year as an officer. The rapist Scott Korhonen made $87,384. > > These men not only avoided jail time, they kept their jobs in law enforcement — in spite of costing the city nearly $5 million and multiple independent investigations finding that they were guilty of several felonies. They were not criminally prosecuted. Anyone notice a pattern? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/277 "2017-08-02T07:36:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The officer who shot him claimed that was the case, and the grand jury that saw the rest of the evidence believed him. It’s the most likely situation. Were it not, there would have been a trial. You may or may not be right but what you don’t admit is that the prosecutor acted more as a defense attorney than an actual prosecutor during that grand jury. The Tamir Rice case is simply a bad one to argue either side. He had a realistic toy gun but it was missing the orange identifying tip BUT you had cops immediately escalating the situation, almost forcing the situation (all 2 seconds) to turn violent. Add on that Tim McGinty who did everything he could to NOT get an indictment (see post immediately above) and you have a clusterfuck of a case. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/278 "2017-08-02T09:02:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Perhaps you can cite me calling his thoughts or motives “evil”? Rice appeared to be reaching for his gun - that’s a threat. It may have been unintentional, but as he’s not being accused of anything that’s irrelevant. You said he tried to threaten the code. “tried” is about intent. You didn’t say appeared to threaten, which would just be about what the cop witnessed. If that’s not what you meant, you should have used different words. For all your complaints about being accurate in accusations, you threw this false one around (about a dead child, for God’s sake!) like it was nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/279 "2017-08-02T09:27:27Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > You know, I honestly feel you catch a lot more crap than you deserve, so I feel bad pointing out that this is the most naive thing I think I’ve ever read here. > > But I’m going to anyway, because this is really the most fucking naive thing I’ve ever read here. Do you believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny too? We all sometimes catch more crap here than we deserve, **Steophan** included, but in this thread he’s earned every bit of it. From the wide-eyed insistence that the dearth of successful prosecutions must mean that the police hadn’t done anything wrong, to the constant bizarre and blatantly incorrect refrain that anyone who doesn’t agree with him must want a lawless state, to his ongoing misrepresentation of the facts of the Rice case in order to support his view that “anyone” (by which one must assume he includes himself) would have shot a 12-year-old boy to death within _two seconds_ of screeching up next to him and shouting at him, he’s pretty much demonstrated both a complete lack of credibility and a willingness to handwave away the deaths of innocent people in order to support his authoritarian leanings. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/280 "2017-08-02T11:25:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is the kind of shit that gets to me. The blank-check nonsensical naivete. Not even of the infallibility of a jury, but of a grand jury, an entity [known to have immense bias in favor of the police](https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/). You trust the system as borderline infallible, even when [if you opened your damn eyes, you could see it failing right in front of you](https://vimeo.com/124336782). You’re like the young earth creationist who responds to evidence of evolution by saying, “But God is right, therefore that isn’t actually evidence of evolution.” They’re not giving the results you like, so they must be biased. I don’t think so. You’re the one who us ignoring all the evidence that conflicts with your views, not me. It’s not naive to think that people with more information than me can reach a better decision. It’s foolish to trust them uncritically, but it’s far worse to dismiss them due to your own bias. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340.md?page=15)