# I pit the cops who openly applauded police abuse today **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340 "2017-07-28T19:00:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/481 "2017-08-04T21:12:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They raided the house on the warrant, not the “wrong house”. > > The medical bills should be paid by the state, but that’s because the investigation was flawed, not the raid. In this case, the warrant was incorrect, and they went to the house on the warrant. In other cases, the warrant is correct, and they went to the wrong house. They are still protected in those cases. And in either case, can you tell me what the occupants of the house did in order to receive force used upon them? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/482 "2017-08-04T21:12:30Z")
Steophan’s tongue and nose are both a deep blue. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/483 "2017-08-04T21:14:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The cops wouldn’t have to worry about this if they just didn’t break down the wrong doors. It doesn’t matter what door they break down. Don’t shoot cops who are doing their job. Do you genuinely not understand that the police are allowed to use force when doing their job, and so you are not allowed to defend yourself against them _when they are doing their job_? They are risking their lives to protect you, and you are saying it should be fine to shoot them. It’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/484 "2017-08-04T21:17:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And in either case, can you tell me what the occupants of the house did in order to receive force used upon them? They lived in a house that was a target of a warrant, or believed to be so by the police. Did you really not know that? It seems like a fairly basic piece of knowledge about those cases. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/485 "2017-08-04T21:20:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If cops just pulled up outside a random house and started hosing it down with bullets, do you think they would get into any trouble? Say they have a warrant for a house on the other side of town because they got a tip of some teenager smoking a joint, and when they arrive at the wrong house, they see a curtain move, and feel threatened. > > I know Steophan would be applauding their efforts, and be talking trash about the victims, and explaining how it was their fault for threatening the police with their curtains, but would there be any argument that the police should pay some sort of penalty? No case in this thread has been a random house, and what you describe is nothing like what has actually happened in these raids. If you can find a case where the police open fire for no reason on a house chosen at random, link to it and I’ll give my opinion. Meanwhile, don’t shoot cops doing their job. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/486 "2017-08-04T21:20:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They lived in a house that was a target of a warrant, or believed to be so by the police. > > Did you really not know that? It seems like a fairly basic piece of knowledge about those cases. So how could they have avoided this situation-Not live in a house? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/487 "2017-08-04T21:20:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It doesn’t matter what door they break down. Don’t shoot cops who are doing their job. > > Do you genuinely not understand that the police are allowed to use force when doing their job, and so you are not allowed to defend yourself against them _when they are doing their job_? They are risking their lives to protect you, and you are saying it should be fine to shoot them. It’s ridiculous. Do you honestly expect a law abiding citizen when faced with someone breaking into their home to not engage in any measure of self defense on the chance some cops screwed up? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/488 "2017-08-04T21:27:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It doesn’t matter what door they break down. Don’t shoot cops who are doing their job. Don’t break down the wrong doors. It’s the cops’ fuck-up, not mine. And you’re suggesting that I should put aside my right to self-defense because of the small chance of a police fuck-up? Why would I agree with that? Wouldn’t I be better off shooting a cop due to mistaken identity than being killed by an intruder? > [@](#): > > Do you genuinely not understand that the police are allowed to use force when doing their job, and so you are not allowed to defend yourself against them _when they are doing their job_? They are risking their lives to protect you, and you are saying it should be fine to shoot them. It’s ridiculous. The cops aren’t allowed to break down the wrong doors. That’s against the rules. They’re not allowed to take part in lynchings, or commit rape, or beat people at random, or shoot civilians who flip them off. Cops are people, and if they violate people’s rights then people can and will do what they have to do in order to survive. I’m saying that your principle of self-defense, that anyone who has legitimate fear that their lives are in imminent danger has the right to use deadly force, means that someone in their own home can shoot an unknown intruder who breaks down the door at night, _even if that intruder later turns out to be an idiot cop_. If there’s a caveat – anyone with legitimate fear _unless the fear is caused by a cop_ – means it’s not much of a principle. I don’t plan to shoot any cops – I think your philosophy is utterly monstrous and would result in an incredibly violent society in which murder was supremely easy to get away with. Kill or be killed would be the rule every day, since anyone might claim that I was attacking them and kill me unless I killed them first . But if you truly value self-defense (which I’m growing rather skeptical of) then you’d put the right of self-defense much, much higher than the very tiny chance that a home-defender might be killing a cop when he/she shoots the unknown intruder. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/489 "2017-08-04T21:28:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They lived in a house that was a target of a warrant, or believed to be so by the police. Then the police didn’t do their due diligence to confirm that the warrant had the right house. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/490 "2017-08-04T21:37:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They raided the house on the warrant, not the “wrong house”. > > The medical bills should be paid by the state, but that’s because the investigation was flawed, not the raid. Was it the house that should have been raided? No. That makes it the wrong house. I will not say anything rude about the lazy, sloppy, cowardly kind of filth that lobs a grenade at a baby without looking. I will not say anything about the incompetent assholes who were too stupid or lazy to confirm the address on the warrant or even proofread t to make sure it was correct before going out. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/491 "2017-08-04T21:40:01Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Was it the house that should have been raided? No. That makes it the wrong house. > > I will not say anything rude about the lazy, sloppy, cowardly kind of filth that lobs a grenade at a baby without looking. I will not say anything about the incompetent assholes who were too stupid or lazy to confirm the address on the warrant or even proofread t to make sure it was correct before going out. It was the house on the warrant, and it was the house they intended to raid. The fuck up was in not confirming that the person they were told lived there did, in fact, live there. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/492 "2017-08-04T21:41:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So how could they have avoided this situation-Not live in a house? You don’t avoid it, you challenge it in court afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/493 "2017-08-04T21:49:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You don’t avoid it, you challenge it in court afterwards. … and IF you survived, they tell you “fuck you, we ain’t paying” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/494 "2017-08-04T21:49:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You don’t avoid it, you challenge it in court afterwards. And which court is it that restores babies, brings back lost limbs and revives the dead? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/495 "2017-08-04T22:02:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Don’t break down the wrong doors. It’s the cops’ fuck-up, not mine. And you’re suggesting that I should put aside my right to self-defense because of the small chance of a police fuck-up? Why would I agree with that? Wouldn’t I be better off shooting a cop due to mistaken identity than being killed by an intruder? I’m not suggesting that at all, I’m saying that you shouldn’t shoot cops who are doing their jobs. That says nothing about what you can do to other people. It’s just not reasonable to say that people can’t tell the difference between uniformed cops and other people. > [@](#): > > The cops aren’t allowed to break down the wrong doors. That’s against the rules. They’re not allowed to take part in lynchings, or commit rape, or beat people at random, or shoot civilians who flip them off. Cops are people, and if they violate people’s rights then people can and will do what they have to do in order to survive. Breaking down doors is part of the police’s job. None of the other things are. Even if it is the wrong door, you can’t know that, so you don’t get to shoot them. > [@](#): > > I’m saying that your principle of self-defense, that anyone who has legitimate fear that their lives are in imminent danger has the right to use deadly force, means that someone in their own home can shoot an unknown intruder who breaks down the door at night, _even if that intruder later turns out to be an idiot cop_. If there’s a caveat – anyone with legitimate fear _unless the fear is caused by a cop_ – means it’s not much of a principle. There’s no caveat. You have the right to defend yourself. You may not shoot cops doing their job, even if that cop is an idiot. However, if by “later turns out to be a cop” you mean that they are out of uniform and didn’t identify themselves as a cop, the self defence could well be reasonable. But a uniformed cop breaking into your house with a warrant - even if the warrant is wrongly issued or misread - is at that time a cop, not identified later as one. > [@](#): > > I don’t plan to shoot any cops – I think your philosophy is utterly monstrous and would result in an incredibly violent society in which murder was supremely easy to get away with. Kill or be killed would be the rule every day, since anyone might claim that I was attacking them and kill me unless I killed them first . I’m not saying that, if someone claims self defence, that should be the end of it and there should be no investigation, which is how you seem to be interpreting it. I am saying that those who kill in self defence should be considered victims of crime and treated as such, and if someone wants to claim that they are not victims but criminals the burden of proof should be entirely on them. The same burden as with any other crime. Better that some people “get away with murder” than any victim of a violent crime is jailed for defending thsmselves. > [@](#): > > But if you truly value self-defense (which I’m growing rather skeptical of) then you’d put the right of self-defense much, much higher than the very tiny chance that a home-defender might be killing a cop when he/she shoots the unknown intruder. If you think the chance is that tiny - or don’t consider it at all - then feel free to shoot. But if you shoot a uniformed cop doing their job - who is not an unknown intruder imminently threatening you, they are an easily identifiable person doing a job - then be prepared to take the consequences. If it’s so unlikely as you make out, it’s not something to worry about. I have to say, I’m pretty fucking sceptical to say the least that a bunch of cops could drive up to someone’s house, break the door in, search the house, reach the bedroom and become a potential imminent threat without the resident being able to identify them, but being able to get to their gun. The door would have to be smashed in extremely quietly… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/496 "2017-08-04T22:04:39Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > … and IF you survived, they tell you “fuck you, we ain’t paying” Well, if you lose in court, yeah, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/497 "2017-08-04T22:10:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And which court is it that restores babies, brings back lost limbs and revives the dead? As I’m sure you well know, that’s not how courts work, and I doubt even you think they should. You’ll get compensation for those things if it’s warranted. Do you think you’d get the same from a drug dealer who shot you by mistake? I doubt it, and I think the police are risking their lives to make it far less likely you will be shot by one. But that’s not good enough for you, you want the right to shoot at the police who have reason to believe that you are that drug dealer, without fear of any response. That is, as so often for you, fucking ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/498 "2017-08-04T22:13:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Cops, and a few other law enforcement personnel, are allowed to use fear and force to get people to do as they are told, as long as what they are being told is legal. You don’t get to defend against that. So cops can legally be complete assholes? Wonder why they get a bad rep. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/499 "2017-08-04T22:17:21Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > [Family of Toddler Injured by SWAT 'Grenade' Faces $1M in Medical Bills - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-toddler-injured-swat-grenade-faces-1m-medical/story?id=27671521) > > Family of Toddler Injured by SWAT ‘Grenade’ Faces $1M in Medical Bills [Update](http://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/update-federal-charges-brought-against-officer-baby-bou-bou-case/wGWw3iatVh3cPYOHlTD1HK/) Federal charges brought against one officer, county settled with the family for almost a million dollars. [Another update](http://rollingout.com/2016/02/27/846658/) A 3.6 million dollar award to the family, Bou Bou doing well. No excuse for the original SNAFU or the bullshittery that followed. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340/500 "2017-08-04T22:19:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > IT DOESN’T MATTER if it’s the wrong door, you still don’t get to shoot the cops, you cooperate with them. > > The police are not the threat you are entitled to defend yourself against, they are the people putting their lives on the line to protect you. Learn what their uniforms look like and don’t shoot them. > > I’m really not sure how “don’t shoot cops who are doing their jobs” is controversial. If they break my door down, they get shot. Fuck them. They kill people who have not done anything wrong . Can’t have it both ways. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-cops-who-openly-applauded-police-abuse-today/792340.md?page=26)