# I Pit the Craptacular Web Geeks of Major Companies **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195 "2004-09-26T20:24:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/21 "2004-09-28T03:01:32Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Oh, and BTW, my girlfriend has XP and uses the Windows version of Internet Explorer. Standard as you can possibly get. Scratch IE and use Mozilla or FireFox to make that second sentence true. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/22 "2004-09-28T06:24:46Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Well, duh. Of course you went out of your way to support Macs. You’re a Mac guy!! No, I went out of my way to _do things right_ because I’m a **professional.** Being a “Mac guy” is just one of the benefits of “doing things right.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/23 "2004-09-28T07:19:52Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > But the world doesn’t revolve around you. _You_ saying this in this thread is one of the funniest and saddest things I’ve seen on this board in over five years. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/24 "2004-09-28T07:45:08Z")
Quite aside from the arrogance involved in **Bill H.**'s attitude, it’s also a huge commercial gamble. Sure, IE is still massively dominant…but anybody dealing with commericial websites should be looking for early indicators of a major change. Such as: > [@](#): > > For example, [W3Schools.com](http://W3Schools.com), a Web development tutorial site found that Mozilla-based browsers were used by 18 percent of its visitors in September, up from 8 percent in January. Internet Explorer use dropped to 75 percent from 84 percent in the same period. [http://news.com.com/Firefox+drawing+fans+away+from+Microsoft+IE/2100-1032\_3-5368302.html](http://news.com.com/Firefox+drawing+fans+away+from+Microsoft+IE/2100-1032_3-5368302.html) Devoting yourself to IE-specific design means that you’re targeting a _shrinking_ market. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/25 "2004-09-28T08:15:32Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Oh really. and how does your knowledge of “the system” exceed mine? I’ve built and run several large development teams. In other words, you’re one of the clueless fucks being pitted and too stupid to actually know how to do your job right. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/26 "2004-09-28T12:46:36Z")
Aside from HTML coding issues, my big gripe with many company Web sites is that they are so f’n **useless**. They present a nice, colorful ad for the company, but are utterly devoid of anything I actually need to know – like a phone number. Hello? I’m an IT manager for a large state government department, potentially a large customer. I’m not buying one or two items from your web page with a credit card, I’m buying in bulk, and that means I need to talk to a sales rep (probably an area manager) in person. I can’t count the number of companies out there who do not post a phone number – I don’t care if it isn’t an 800 number, my phone budget covers toll calls – but POST A FREAK’IN NUMBER ALREADY!!! The one that really annoys me is when there is a link entitled “Contact Us”, and, instead of a company directory, up pops a window where you can send them an email. Not helpful. Here’s a hint. Don’t let the Web designers loose on your Web site without someone who actually deals with your cutomers in the loop. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/27 "2004-09-28T13:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > **Bill H.** said: > Oh really. and how does your knowledge of “the system” exceed mine? I’ve built and run several large development teams. I’ve been that guy with the list where “Mac support” is on it, but far from the top. Then you didn’t do your job properly. Had you done your job properly, ‘Mac support’ wouldn’t have been an issue because if you, get this, write actual standard code for websites, it’ll be _platform independent_. Believe it or not Mr. I’ve Been On RFC Boards, the web standards do not revolve around Internet Explorer. > [@](#): > > But the world doesn’t revolve around you. It most certainly does not revolve around Internet Explorer, which is how you seem to think it works. > [@](#): > > Oh really. How close have you been to an RFC? I’ve been an active member in a number of working groups that wrote them. I’ve put features into standards you use every day (and I’ve pushed for features that were declined). Someone who thinks that non-proprietary, industry wide standards revolve around IE has pushed for features that were ‘declined’? No shit? I can’t say I’m surprised here. I’ve been quite up close and personal with RFCs, and anybody who writes them to conform to _one specific proprietary piece of software_ is a fucking moron, even more so than the people who merely design a website for one browser and then bitch about ‘Mac support.’ > [@](#): > > Well, duh. Of course you went out of your way to support Macs. You’re a Mac guy!! He obviously went out of his way to design a website that does what websites were intended to do: be independent of the end user’s platform. Same thing I do in all of my contracts. > [@](#): > > **rjung** said: > No, I went out of my way to do things right because I’m a professional. You and me both. And you know how much ‘extra’ work it takes to do the job right too, I’ll bet. 😉 > [@](#): > > **Brother Cadfael** said: > Aside from HTML coding issues, my big gripe with many company Web sites is that they are so f’n useless. They present a nice, colorful ad for the company, but are utterly devoid of anything I actually need to know – like a phone number. Hello? And this is the source of much negotiation with my clients when I do web design. They seem to focus on glitz and Flash and horrible shit, while I’m trying to determine what kind of actual _content_ they want. One of the best clients I ever worked with was one who knew nothing at all about websites, didn’t have one at that point, and piled me with information then gave me carte blanche to create the site I thought would be ‘best’ for them. They provided a few features they absolutely wanted and let me create the rest. They and their customers have been very happy with the site. > [@](#): > > The one that really annoys me is when there is a link entitled “Contact Us”, and, instead of a company directory, up pops a window where you can send them an email. Not helpful. I usually do include an email link on the ‘Contact Us’ page, but I also list mailing address for snail mail, and phone numbers of important contact people on that page. The ‘Contact Us’ link that pops up an email box is particularly heinous, in my opinion, and is often made worse by the fact that some designers will hide the email address on mouseover. Another thing that I really, really like is for a site to have a ‘Site Map’ page, especially if there are many convoluted menus to follow through. Just makes life easier, and since I do a layout and planning before I start to code, that’s usually something that’s all done but the code pretty early on. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/28 "2004-09-28T15:53:43Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Another thing that I really, really like is for a site to have a ‘Site Map’ page, especially if there are many convoluted menus to follow through. Just makes life easier, and since I do a layout and planning before I start to code, that’s usually something that’s all done but the code pretty early on. I like that too. Often it’s much quicker to use than menus. Hell, the [BBC](http://www.bbc.co.uk/a-z/) manage to have a full A-Z directory. ---
**Author:** ![The\_world\_s\_most\_deadliest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@The\_world\_s\_most\_deadliest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_world_s_most_deadliest)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/29 "2004-09-28T16:08:04Z")
I feel everybody’s pain. I’m a web designer forced to design around an IE-only website engine. Its all Perl and CGI and according to the designer, its “too much work” to convert it to code that will work properly with my Firefox browser. “Too much work”, my ass. You’ll be first against the wall when the revolution comes, homey. Plus, it makes me look like a know-nothing chump because my clients come to me with all sorts of internet related problems, so I recommend Firefox…but not for their sites, because they’ll only work in IE. That’s all it is, is laziness. Code in a browser-independent language. Just because you thought you were safe when you wrote this code in '99 doesn’t mean you’ll never have to, oh, catch up with the times, lets say. If you don’t code for all browsers, then you’re breaking a cardinal rule of web design and there’s no excuse for you. Also, my $0.02 on company websites that don’t provide any real contact information: you’re all fuckers. AT&T Wireless purposely didn’t list any contact phone # besides their god-awful customer service line…very long story short, I had to Google for 1/2 an hour to find their corporate headquarters phone number. Of course, once I found it and called them, they were miraculously able to fix my problem…probably because they figured anyone dedicated and angry enough to hunt down their well-hidden corporate phone number was unstable enough to do then serious harm if they didn’t appease her. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/30 "2004-09-28T16:34:48Z")
> [@The world's most deadliest...](#): > > Also, my $0.02 on company websites that don’t provide any real contact information: you’re all fuckers. AT&T Wireless purposely didn’t list any contact phone # besides their god-awful customer service line…very long story short, I had to Google for 1/2 an hour to find their corporate headquarters phone number. Of course, once I found it and called them, they were miraculously able to fix my problem…probably because they figured anyone dedicated and angry enough to hunt down their well-hidden corporate phone number was unstable enough to do then serious harm if they didn’t appease her. 😃 Heh. I had DSL through Verizon a little while back, and needed to contact them to discontinue service. I didn’t have a copy of any of my bills (I know, I know), but I figured I should be able to figure out how to do it online, yes? No! You got NO billing/contact info from them at all unless you logged into their system, and you could only register with their system if you had a copy of your most recent statement with some code or other on it. I couldn’t believe it. IF I HAD MY BILL I WOULD BE ON THE PHONE TO YOU, YOU MORONS! I might not be remembering the details all exactly right, but basically it was a horrible catch 22 where I needed info from them, and the only way they would let me talk to them was by providing the info I needed to get. Gah. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/31 "2004-09-28T18:45:59Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > The one that really annoys me is when there is a link entitled “Contact Us”, and, instead of a company directory, up pops a window where you can send them an email. Not helpful. How about the “Contact Us” links that _only let you send an email to the webmaster?_ How these companies stay in business is beyond me. As for online bill paying, I **still** can’t pay my fucking Comcast bill online, but they sure want to expand my phone service to include DSL. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/32 "2004-09-28T22:32:20Z")
**catsix** wrote > [@](#): > > ( **rjung** ) obviously went out of his way to design a website that does what websites were intended to do: be independent of the end user’s platform. Same thing I do in all of my contracts. > > rjung: “No, I went out of my way to do things right because I’m a professional.” > > You and me both. And you know how much ‘extra’ work it takes to do the job right too, I’ll bet. There’s no love-fest like a Mac love-fest. “You’re the professional!” “No, **you** are the professional!” “No, no! **You** are the professional!” Meanwhile, the professionals are off building things that satisfy the majority of their customers. And the “professionals” are off whining on a message board that their computers don’t interoperate. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/33 "2004-09-28T22:36:51Z")
**Dan Norder** wrote > [@](#): > > In other words, you’re one of the clueless fucks being pitted and too stupid to actually know how to do your job right. **catsix** wrote > [@](#): > > Then you didn’t do your job properly. It’s bad enough I have to deprioritize work to support your Operating System. You don’t have to make me enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/34 "2004-09-28T22:39:18Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Meanwhile, the professionals are off building things that satisfy the majority of their customers. Satisfy a _decreasing number_ of their customers. You haven’t responded to that yet. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/35 "2004-09-28T23:37:57Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > But if any of you Mac-heads wants to sell me a very cheap Mac on which I can test my sites and make the Web a better place for you, I’d be into it 😃 You want to buy an old Performa 500 series? It’s only 10 years old, things haven’t changed too much in 10 years, right? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/36 "2004-09-28T23:52:03Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Meanwhile, the professionals are off building things that satisfy the majority of their customers. _Translation:_ These so-called “professionals” didn’t suggest a 100% standards-compliant solution to their client, one that would satisfy _all_ of their customers. Just out of curiousity, **Bill H.,** but which clients _have_ you applied your oh-so-wonderful techniques to? I’d like to give them a call and get some extra business. “Hey, you know that web site of yours? Do you know you’re losing 15,000 visitors a day because it’s not standards compliant?” ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/37 "2004-09-28T23:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > **Bill H.** said: > There’s no love-fest like a Mac love-fest. “You’re the professional!” “No, you are the professional!” “No, no! You are the professional!” I don’t use a Mac, fucktard. I don’t even own one. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, the professionals are off building things that satisfy the majority of their customers. Yeah, they’re off trying to satisfy a rapidly decreasing number of users when they could instead do their jobs properly and not write shitty, platform dependent sites. > [@](#): > > And the “professionals” are off whining on a message board that their computers don’t interoperate. My computers interoperate beautifully. I have Windows boxes and Unix boxes, and they talk to each other with no problem. When I design websites, I do so with the knowledge that those who visit them will use IE and Opera and Safari and Netscape and Mozilla and any other browser, and I write _standard code that is platform independent_. > [@](#): > > **rjung** said: > Translation: These so-called “professionals” didn’t suggest a 100% standards-compliant solution to their client, one that would satisfy all of their customers. You gotta wonder what kind of ‘professional’ thinks that you can satisfy _either_ the Mac users _or_ the IE users, but not both. Shit, standard code does exist for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/38 "2004-09-29T00:09:29Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I don’t use a Mac, fucktard. I don’t even own one. Me neither. I used one, once. In 1995. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/39 "2004-09-29T00:16:42Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > It’s bad enough I have to deprioritize work to support your Operating System. You don’t have to make me enjoy it. If website designers would just use HTML, and not bother with the damn Javascript or Flash except where necessary (and don’t even get me started on frames), then there wouldn’t be a problem. To reiterate and paraphrase what others have said: do it right the first time and you won’t have to go back and add support for other browsers/OS’es. Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for using advanced features like script and CGI where they do some good (couldn’t have a message board without 'em) but damned if a day goes by where I don’t visit a site that has piles of unnecessary Javascript buried in the page source. Sometimes this script causes a problem. Remember: Keep It Simple, Stupid. It’s the same with programming - developers will spend 6 months or a year writing up their design on a whiteboard (because this is what they teach us to do in programming class) only to result in a buggy/insecure/incompatible/slow/etc piece of crap that throws an exception and dies if you look at it funny. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195/40 "2004-09-29T01:40:51Z")
Last time I updated my web site I tested under the following browers: Netscape 4 for Windows (tested under NT) Internet Explorer (umm, the one that gets installed with XP) Opera 6 for Windows Internet Explorer 2.x for Windows (tested under NT) Netscape 4 for Linux Internet Explorer 5 for Mac (tested under MacOS 9) Mozilla 1.2.1 for MacOS9 FireFox for Windows (I think it’s 0.8 or 0.9) FireFox for MacOS X (likewise) OmniWeb 5 for MacOS X iCab 2.9.8 for 68K Mac (tested under Basilisk II / System 7.5.5) iCab 2.9.8 for MacOS X Camino 0.7.0 for MacOS X Netscape 7.1 for MacOS X Mozilla 1.3/5.0 for X11 (tested under OS X X11) Lynx 2.8.3 (tested under OS X terminal) Netscape 3.0 for MacOS (tested under MacOS 8.6) Mosaic 2.0 (tested under MacOS 8.6) Shiira 0.9.2.2 for MacOS X I readily admit I didn’t test enough under Linux environment, didn’t test at all for browser behavior under BSD and Solaris, and didn’t test enough Windows browsers, definitely didn’t test enough browsers under XP or older Windows (e.g. 98). But I figured areas of incompatibility would show up after awhile and when they did I created messages and auto-forwards to alternative pages. I only abandoned the very oldest and least compatible of browsers (really just Mosaic, come to think of it). I have a “guestbook” page that uses iFrames but for non-iFrame-compliant browsers will supply a page with upper and lower frame instead. I’m not happy about using Frames or iFrames but they fit a need and extensive testing indicated I could get away with it (with the alternatives described above). And my site isn’t even commercial. If I were running a commercial site I’d greet everhyone _NOT_ running Internet Explorer and/or _NOT_ running Windows with a little greeting “Welcome! I see you’re using \ under \! This web site has been extensively tested to make sure you don’t get a second-rate browsing experience here. If you should find otherwise, please email the webmaster at [webgeek@domain.com](mailto:webgeek@domain.com) and we’ll address any compatibility issues as quickly as possible”. And my test-list would be three times as long and cover every browser I could get my hands on. And yes, my site works in Lynx. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-craptacular-web-geeks-of-major-companies/266195.md?page=3)