# I pit the current AR-15 market **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445 "2012-12-29T00:58:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/121 "2012-12-30T23:28:13Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Of course Asperger’s Disorder is a mental illness. It is one of the Pervasive Developmental Disorders, along with Autism, Rett’s Disorder, and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder. [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/opinion/dont-blame-autism-for-newtown.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/opinion/dont-blame-autism-for-newtown.html?_r=0) For one thing, Asperger’s and autism are not forms of mental illness; they are neurodevelopmental disorders or disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/122 "2012-12-30T23:32:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ok, I will repeat what I was saying. See if you agree or disagree with any of these statements. > > 1. “Mentally ill” who seek help can usually be treated with modern psychiatric drugs and lead a normal life, thus posing less danger to themselves and to society than if they are not treated. > > 2. You can only register for the purposes of denial of 2nd amendment rights people who seek help for their mental illness. Those who don’t seek help cannot be registered. > > 3. If you pass laws that remove rights, such as 2nd amendment rights, from the “registered” mentally ill, that will cause fewer of them to seek help. > > 4. Take the 3 points above. Put them together and you see that by pursuing your solution you cause more untreated mentally ill out there who are eligible to buy guns. > > Is that your goal? Still waiting for a yes or no. If the answer is anything but “yes, we need to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill” then we need to stop pushing that particular talking point. Answer the question, then we can determine how to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/123 "2012-12-30T23:33:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/opinion/dont-blame-autism-for-newtown.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/opinion/dont-blame-autism-for-newtown.html?_r=0) > > For one thing, Asperger’s and autism are not forms of mental illness; they are neurodevelopmental disorders or disabilities. That is an extreme position taken by advocates. Calling it a neurodevelopmental disorder doesn’t meaningfully distinguish it from any other mental disorder. How is ADHD not a neurodevelopmental disorder, for instance? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/124 "2012-12-30T23:38:45Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Still waiting for a yes or no. > > If the answer is anything but “yes, we need to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill” then we need to stop pushing that particular talking point. Answer the question, then we can determine how to do it. Hey dummy, your point is nonsense. But I’ll play… My position is that anyone whose judgment, perception, behavioral control, affective control, intelligence or executive function might fluctuate such that they are unsafe with a gun should be prevented from owning one. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/125 "2012-12-30T23:49:38Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Still waiting for a yes or no. > > If the answer is anything but “yes, we need to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill” then we need to stop pushing that particular talking point. Answer the question, then we can determine how to do it. The answer is yes, out of the hands of some of them. There are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of “mentally ill”-diagnosed individuals who, under treatment, are as “normal” as you and I. I don’t care if such people own guns. Your method will keep the guns out of the hands of such people. And leave them in the hands of untreated mentally ill people, whose numbers the method will increase. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/126 "2012-12-30T23:50:55Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How is ADHD not a neurodevelopmental disorder, for instance? ADHD is, and it isn’t a “mental illness” either. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/127 "2012-12-30T23:56:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > ADHD is, and it isn’t a “mental illness” either. Uh, how so? What then are all those things in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/128 "2012-12-31T00:03:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Uh, how so? What then are all those things in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders? I guess it’s an “I know it when I see it” kind of thing. See [The distinction between personality disorder and mental illness | The British Journal of Psychiatry | Cambridge Core](http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/180/2/110.full) So, objectively, hard to say. I tend to the side of - if there is a biological/neurochemical cause (like, for example, for depression or MD, or schizophrenia), it is a “mental illness”. If it’s a developmental thing - that is, there is no chemical imbalance, but a different brain arrangement - then it isn’t. The first kind is easier to diagnose and treat. The second kind is nebulous in diagnosis and untreatable. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/129 "2012-12-31T00:09:01Z")
Well, we could either go with the DSM, or we could pull shit out of our ass until we know it when we see it. Let’s go the former, seeing as how it has more scientific credibility. ETA: Everything you said was total nonsense, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/130 "2012-12-31T00:09:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, we could either go with the DSM, or we could pull shit out of our ass until we know it when we see it. You do realize that DSM is basically the same as “pulling shit out of your ass” on a lot of subjects. Like diagnosing autism. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/131 "2012-12-31T00:18:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You do realize that DSM is basically the same as “pulling shit out of your ass” on a lot of subjects. Like diagnosing autism. I don’t realize that, in fact, and it’s clear you have no idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/132 "2012-12-31T01:20:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I don’t realize that, in fact, and it’s clear you have no idea what you’re talking about. Read it. Diagnosing autism is notoriously subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/133 "2012-12-31T01:44:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Read it. Diagnosing autism is notoriously subjective. It is no more subjective than diagnosing ADHD, depression, post traumatic stress disorder, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, borderline personality disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, alcohol dependence, or pretty much any other mental disorder. Which of these disorders, by the way, has no evidence of a biological contribution? Which should be the basis of an exclusion from gun ownership? ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/134 "2013-01-01T14:38:29Z")
> [@Pinmin](#): > > The bigger philosophical issue is why are “hunting” weapons more acceptible than other types of guns? This is a serious question - I can understand arguments of outright bans or bans on functional features, but don’t get “hunting” exclusion. Or is it just a play to avoid the ire of a large group of law-abiding, voting, sportsmen? Because with (what I assume people are considering) a hunting rifle (bolt-action) you have to load the low capacity magazine by pushing rounds through the breech, and you have to cycle each shot manually with the bolt. The likelihood of carving a path of death and destruction by loosing dozens of rounds in a few seconds (and thus being a weapon of choice among criminals who value this property) is practically nil. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/135 "2013-01-02T03:35:53Z")
> [@mack](#): > > Because with (what I assume people are considering) a hunting rifle (bolt-action) you have to load the low capacity magazine by pushing rounds through the breech, and you have to cycle each shot manually with the bolt. The likelihood of carving a path of death and destruction by loosing dozens of rounds in a few seconds (and thus being a weapon of choice among criminals who value this property) is practically nil. A pump shotgun will throw out just as much carnage as an “assault weapon” with a 30 round mag. That’s why more people are killed annually with shotguns as opposed to assault weapons. The reason hunting weapons are “excluded” is to split the gun owners into factions. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/136 "2013-01-02T14:32:35Z")
Just got a text from a relative: “My AR-15 and Mini14 have doubled in price. Thanks Obama!” Being a practical sort, I’m sure he has them posted on [gunbroker.com](http://gunbroker.com) already. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/137 "2013-01-02T15:02:44Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > A pump shotgun will throw out just as much carnage as an “assault weapon” with a 30 round mag. That’s why more people are killed annually with shotguns as opposed to assault weapons… Could it not be ismply that more people have shotguns than have such weapons? > [@](#): > > …The reason hunting weapons are “excluded” is to split the gun owners into factions. Or it could be a recognition that such weapons as hunting rifles are simply more legitimate as sports equipment. Though many of us spend our nights fitfully dreaming of grabbing everything in sight…hunting rifles, staple guns, Nerf guns…we still accept that the first step down the road to tyranny and helplessness ought to be sensible and reasonable regulation. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Soon. Soon! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/138 "2013-01-02T19:00:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Which disorders will be disqualifying? How many people do you think have a mental disorder? > > Where is this database going to come from? You seem to think that it somehow exists and is only being held back by HIPAA. Under Federal law: Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.” No need to name all disorders now and in the future. That definition covers it right there. Now to get the list so they can be prohibited through the NICS check. Seems like a solvable problem. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/139 "2013-01-02T19:04:43Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Under Federal law: > Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.” > > No need to name all disorders now and in the future. That definition covers it right there. Now to get the list so they can be prohibited through the NICS check. Seems like a solvable problem. Using that definition, would an alcoholic who self-committed to a treatment facility in a mental institution be disqualified? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445/140 "2013-01-02T19:21:43Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Using that definition, would an alcoholic who self-committed to a treatment facility in a mental institution be disqualified? Generally, no. [Here is what the BATFE says](http://gunowners.org/ne0703.htm) (open letter so full repost): > [@](#): > > ADJUDICATED AS A MENTAL DEFECTIVE > > ``` > A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: > Is a danger to himself or to others; or > Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. > The term shall include— > A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and > Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b. > > ``` > > COMMITTED TO A MENTAL INSTITUTION > > This term means a formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term also includes a commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness, and commitments for other reasons such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or any voluntary admission to a mental institution. > > ATF has historically interpreted these provisions as constituting two distinct prohibitions. Each prohibition represents a separate disqualification. For example, a “commitment” means a formal commitment, not a voluntary stay. Excluded are stays for observation only. Nor does the term include a stay in a mental institution that never involved any form of adjudication by a lawful authority. However, a stay that began as a voluntary stay may be subsequently transformed into a disqualifying stay if a court, board, or other lawful authority makes a determination that the person is a danger to self or others. Moreover, a voluntary stay that is by itself not disabling could be later converted into a formal commitment and therefore be disabling. > > For purposes of a Federal firearms disability, ATF interprets “adjudicated mental defective” to include anyone adjudicated to be a “danger to him or herself,” “a danger to others,” or lacking “the mental capacity to contract or manage their own affairs.” For purposes of Federal law, “danger” means any danger, not simply “imminent” or “substantial” danger as is often required to sustain an involuntary commitment under State law. Thus, for example, adjudication that a person was mentally ill and a danger to himself or others would result in Federal firearms disability, whether the court-ordered treatment was on an inpatient or outpatient basis. This is because the adjudication itself (a finding of danger due to mental illness) is sufficient to trigger the disability. > > It should be emphasized that whatever adjudication procedure a State employs, the Constitution requires certain guarantees of due process. In order for a particular commitment order to qualify as a prohibiting commitment, ATF historically has required that traditional protections of due process be present, including adequate notice, an opportunity to respond, and a right to counsel. Such protections are important because whether a person has been adjudicated a mental defective or committed to a mental institution, the firearms disability is permanent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-current-ar-15-market/645445.md?page=8)