# I Pit The Death Penalty ... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520 "2005-02-23T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/21 "2005-02-23T19:13:03Z")
Amen, buttonjockey308. I’m not sure I agree with you regarding drugs (I just haven’t done enough research on the matter to form an intelligent opinion either way), but I’m pretty much with you on the rest of your post. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/22 "2005-02-23T21:51:35Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > Pro-Lifers, the State of Texas, those in favor of the Death Penalty, **Mr. Blue Sky** and **FinnAgain** , consider yourself pitted. I’m sure you’re not going to be impressed at all, but it’s probably as close to the real meaning of justice as you’re ever going to get. Why the hell are you pitting me? What, exactly, have I said that you take issue with? ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/23 "2005-02-23T22:43:03Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > What a bunch of bleeding heart bullshit. It’s not about punishment, it’s not about deterrence. The DP is all about responsibility. Society has certain responsibilities to all of it’s members, education, the ability to make a living, etc…, but all members of society have the responsibility to live within it’s framework, including the obligation not to harm other members of society. In a case like the one being discussed ([link](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/22/missing.family/index.html)), the guy has confessed to murdering a 7 month pregnant woman and her 7 year old son. We don’t owe this fuck head ANYTHING. He’s proven he can not live within the constraints of society, so we have every right to take him out of it as painlessly as possible. Thank God he’s in Texas where they’ll do the right thing. So basically you’re saying that we have a contract with society to behave responsibly, and if you breach that contract, you deserve different levels of removal from society. You almost sounded as if you were making an attempt at reasonable debate, until you grabbed your torch, hat and coat and went outside to join the lynch mob. The death penalty is the least painful way to exclude someone from society? Considering its irreversebility, that’s pretty damn silly. That man was once a 7 year old boy. Life does not necessarily lose its value with age, it’s just more vulnerable at 7 - though that too, can be questioned in our modern society. This being the pit, and since you forsook reason yourself at the end of your post and joined the mob, I’ll end with shaking my head pitifully at your dragging down of the words “Do the right thing” from the level to where Spike Lee once lifted them. If you have to be an angry mob, be one for the right reasons. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/24 "2005-02-23T22:49:43Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > The murder victims were a pregnant woman _and_ her 7 year old son. Yes, but **Airman Doors** was talking about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Dancing\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dancing\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancing_Dead)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/25 "2005-02-23T22:49:56Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > What a bunch of bleeding heart bullshit. It’s not about punishment, it’s not about deterrence. The DP is all about responsibility. Society has certain responsibilities to all of it’s members, education, the ability to make a living, etc…, but all members of society have the responsibility to live within it’s framework, including the obligation not to harm other members of society. In a case like the one being discussed ([link](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/22/missing.family/index.html)), the guy has confessed to murdering a 7 month pregnant woman and her 7 year old son. We don’t owe this fuck head ANYTHING. He’s proven he can not live within the constraints of society, so we have every right to take him out of it as painlessly as possible. Thank God he’s in Texas where they’ll do the right thing. What a bunch of heartless bullshit. It is about one thing only - revenge. Yup, just like organized crime. Which is, in my not so fucking humble opinion, exactly what the DP is, crime organized by the state. It has sweet-fuck-all to do with responsibility. If it were about deterence the US would have the lowest rate of murder in the Western world - not the highest. I can at least agree with that. It is a sop to some of the lowest forms of human emotion and behavior. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/26 "2005-02-23T22:50:25Z")
You going to answer me? Why am I being pitted, and for what? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/27 "2005-02-23T22:59:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > By this logic we should set all of the kidnappers free. Hmmm…I never did put too much stock in logic. This kind of assininery is exactly why. ---
**Author:** ![Dancing\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dancing\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancing_Dead)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/28 "2005-02-23T23:00:02Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > The way I see it, there are people in our society that need to die. Some of the more famous serial killers are among them, as are pederasts/pedophiles, spree and thrill killers, repeat sexual predators and certian violent sociopaths. There is no question, the process needs work, but I think abolishment is a mistake, because it DOES, at least IMO, act as a deterrent, (as well as a preventative). I call bullshit, see my post above. Besides “people…that need to die”. Wow. Who the fuck elected you god? > [@](#): > > 1. Decriminalize and regulate Marijuana, and OVERcriminalize harder drugs. There isn’t a potential medical usage for crack or heroin. Yes, it will effect the poor, no, I don’t care. Right. How much medical usage is there for beer? Fatty foods? The answer is not to criminalize but to decriminalize. Take away the dealers by making it legal and you remove the ridiculous prices (I hear they are ridiculous anyway) and stop the need for crime. Your solution is both inhumane and stupid. You seem to lack an understanding of what drives drug-related crime. Hint: It is not the drugs themselves. People have a moral right to put whatever the hell they want into their own bodies. > [@](#): > > 1. Return to the penal system. Correction does not work. America is renowned for attempting rehab. Yup. Hang on, no it isn’t. It is renowned for being harsh and punitive. Restorative justice has (to the best of my knowledge) never even been attempted here. You seem to think that locking people up and removing their basic humanity is a solution. > [@](#): > > 1. Truth in sentencing. No 1-for-1 here, The issued penalty for a crime is say, 5 years in the joint. The criminal spends the WHOLE FIVE YEARS. Period. While working to sustain the place we’ve sent him (or her). Nothing wrong with truth-in-sentencing. But it needs to be tempered by realistic sentences. Which means not locking people up for posession. Which means decriminalizing drugs/prostitution et al. Victimless fucking crimes. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/29 "2005-02-23T23:08:59Z")
> [@Dancing Dead](#): > > Right. How much medical usage is there for beer? Fatty foods? The answer is not to criminalize but to decriminalize. Take away the dealers by making it legal and you remove the ridiculous prices (I hear they are ridiculous anyway) and stop the need for crime. Your solution is both inhumane and stupid. You seem to lack an understanding of what drives drug-related crime. Hint: It is not the drugs themselves. People have a moral right to put whatever the hell they want into their own bodies. This is a completely different topic, and suitable for another thread. But I’ll comment that people might well have a right to take whateber drugs they want, but only as long as it doesn’t affect my life. And if you think that addiction affects only the addict, then I suggest you might be the one with an inadequate understanding of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/30 "2005-02-23T23:55:57Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > And the lynching mob that blindly screams death death death at every tragic news story involving a blameable victim. However evil they consider killing, this same evil is in one sentence considered the greatest good, the best response to such tragedy. Murderers are Evil. The Evil should be Murdered. He suffocated a SEVEN YEAR OLD CHILD. I’ll bet he deserved it, too. Justify this, if you don’t mind. > [@](#): > > How on earth do you believe this will make the situation any better. I mean, the man isn’t even your typical evil psychopath, or he would simply not have cared about his wife and family finding out. Oh, my bad, a man who kills a pregnant woman and a kid is that special kind of psychopath. Well, we MUST keep him around. > [@](#): > > Nobody even knows the story behind this - maybe the woman blackmailed him, demanded him to do things for her, support her, or whatever, or else she would tell his family. Maybe this had been going on for a long time, and the man got completely tangled up in a mess of emotions till he finally snapped. Maybe the woman had good reasons to do so, too, single mom, tough making it through the week, no friends, little welfare, bad job, lonely, whatever. Killing her certianly takes of that whole blackmail thing, eh? Sounds like he imposed his own death penalty. > [@](#): > > Thousands of different possibilities, and all the mob screams is for ways to make it even worse. Instead, why not simply teach people to deal with emotions, to accept imperfections, allow for mistakes, and to deal with problems before they get completely out of hand? Yes, you can blame society for such failures. And a society that suggests death is sometimes the best solution, especially if it makes you feel better, imho sets a bad example. Mob mentality is, indeed, a bad thing. How will spending the rest of his life in prison accomplish anything for society? Let’s say he truly comes to regret what he’s done, but it takes until he’s 70-80 years old? Do you let him out of prison? What’s he gonna do? The public will have to take care of him until his death. > [@](#): > > Pro-Lifers, the State of Texas, those in favor of the Death Penalty, **Mr. Blue Sky** and **FinnAgain** , consider yourself pitted. I’m sure you’re not going to be impressed at all, but it’s probably as close to the real meaning of justice as you’re ever going to get. No, I’m not impressed. After 6 years and nearly 11,000 posts, I somehow expected my first direct pitting to have, oh, I don’t know, substance. > [@](#): > > yes this rant is partly inspired by some lame idiot in the Netherlands suggesting we should reintroduce the death penalty, just because he things it might win him some votes That should be “…he THINKS…”, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/31 "2005-02-23T23:58:05Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > So basically you’re saying that we have a contract with society to behave responsibly, and if you breach that contract, you deserve different levels of removal from society. > > You almost sounded as if you were making an attempt at reasonable debate, until you grabbed your torch, hat and coat and went outside to join the lynch mob. > > The death penalty is the least painful way to exclude someone from society? Considering its irreversebility, that’s pretty damn silly. > > \ > > This being the pit, and since you forsook reason yourself at the end of your post and joined the mob, I’ll end with shaking my head pitifully at your dragging down of the words “Do the right thing” from the level to where Spike Lee once lifted them. If you have to be an angry mob, be one for the right reasons. What reason have I forsaken? He’ll get a trial, where he will have the opportunity to defend his actions assisted by a highly paid professional, and will be judged by the evidence presented. Since he confessed, I am assuming that he will be found guilty and executed “as painlessly as possible”, by due process of law. Where in all of that is this mob mentality that you’re accusing me of having? > [@](#): > > That man was once a 7 year old boy. Life does not necessarily lose its value with age, it’s just more vulnerable at 7 - though that too, can be questioned in our modern society. Life loses it’s value based upon the actions of it’s owner. In this man’s case, the value that his life had has been forfeited by his actions. Yes I say absolutely, unequivocally, that his life is worth less than a 7 year old child’s life, _because of what he’s done_. ---
**Author:** ![Dancing\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dancing\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancing_Dead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/32 "2005-02-24T00:08:46Z")
> [@andros](#): > > This is a completely different topic, and suitable for another thread. But I’ll comment that people might well have a right to take whateber drugs they want, but only as long as it doesn’t affect my life. > > And if you think that addiction affects only the addict, then I suggest you might be the one with an inadequate understanding of the situation. Funnily enough, I say the same thing to you. I know rather a lot about addiction. yes it has an effect on other people. That is in no way a reason to lock people up for it. That simply blames the victim. The addiction only effects your life if you are close to the person. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/33 "2005-02-24T00:11:56Z")
> [@Dancing Dead](#): > > The addiction only effects your life if you are close to the person. Not true. Insurance premiums go up if more people are unhealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Dancing\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dancing\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancing_Dead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/34 "2005-02-24T00:12:53Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > What reason have I forsaken? He’ll get a trial, where he will have the opportunity to defend his actions assisted by a highly paid professional, and will be judged by the evidence presented. Since he confessed, I am assuming that he will be found guilty and executed “as painlessly as possible”, by due process of law. Where in all of that is this mob mentality that you’re accusing me of having? > Life loses it’s value based upon the actions of it’s owner. In this man’s case, the value that his life had has been forfeited by his actions. Yes I say absolutely, unequivocally, that his life is worth less than a 7 year old child’s life, _because of what he’s done_. He’ll probably get a trial assisted by someone who really does not give a fuck. What makes you think his attorney will be a highly payed and motivated? You seem to have no problem with the state killing people provided it is painless. Good way to get rid of those undesirables huh? Your last statement suggests that this man’s life is no only worth less than that of a 7 year old child but that it is completely without worth at all. You are entitled to that opinion. Sounds like you would be happy enough to push the plunger yourself. The DP is nothing short of barbaric. Our nation lessens itself every time it is used. Morally and in the eyes of the civilized world. A world which we are increrasingly estranged from. Due to our barbarism. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/35 "2005-02-24T00:49:28Z")
> [@Dancing Dead](#): > > The addiction only effects your life if you are close to the person. nitpick. Um, actually, sex is the only thing that can **e** ffect a human life. Many things, however, can **a** ffect one. sorry… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/36 "2005-02-24T00:53:49Z")
> [@Dancing Dead](#): > > Funnily enough, I say the same thing to you. I know rather a lot about addiction. yes it has an effect on other people. That is in no way a reason to lock people up for it. That simply blames the victim. The addiction only effects your life if you are close to the person. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I am not a victim. I am an addict. I chose to use my personal drug, knowing the dangers. I chose to use, and therefore I chose my addiction. _I am to blame._ Now then, this idea that addiction to highly addictive and toxic substances has no overall societal effects is laughably naive. So keep right on believing it, I’ll keep on being amused. But ya know, I didn’t say one fucking thing about locking people up for being addicts. ---
**Author:** ![Dancing\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dancing\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancing_Dead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/37 "2005-02-24T00:54:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not true. Insurance premiums go up if more people are unhealthy. I’ve already come out in favor of socializing/nationalizing healthcare anyway. I see the insurance companies as the spawn of satan. What if, for example, under a nationalized system, one excluded certain kinds of treatment to people still using drugs? And had free rehab? I would personally go for the free rehab, but not the exclusion. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/38 "2005-02-24T01:10:56Z")
One more time with feeling, The message that I think! the great state of Texas is trying to send is the following: If you are going to kill someone go somewhere else and do it. Because if you come to Texas and kill someone the state will kill you back. Apparently **ARWIN** and his ilk think that murderers should be freed, as soon as **ARWIN** and his buddies agree that these CONVICTED MURDERERS can come and live with them (in your house with you and your family!) I will start working on having them transported to your house. “Some folks just need killing” Unclviny (who has never killed anyone because the penalty is quite severe). ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/39 "2005-02-24T01:13:07Z")
> [@Dancing Dead](#): > > He’ll probably get a trial assisted by someone who really does not give a fuck. What makes you think his attorney will be a highly payed and motivated? > > You seem to have no problem with the state killing people provided it is painless. Good way to get rid of those undesirables huh? > > Your last statement suggests that this man’s life is no only worth less than that of a 7 year old child but that it is completely without worth at all. You are entitled to that opinion. Sounds like you would be happy enough to push the plunger yourself. The DP is nothing short of barbaric. Of course. _Because of his actions_. He devalued it, not me. Why are the concepts of responsibility and consequences so hard to understand? > [@Dancing Dead](#): > > Our nation lessens itself every time it is used. Morally and in the eyes of the civilized world. A world which we are increasingly estranged from. Due to our barbarism. Blah, blah, blah. I care not a fuck for what the “civilized world” thinks. They are free to run their countries any way they see fit. You seem to be a fairly liberal guy based upon your posts, my guess is that you are likely in favor of a woman’s right to an abortion. So am I. However, if someone doesn’t believe in abortion, my attitude is simple: Don’t have one. I view the DP the same way. If some other country thinks it’s “barbaric”, they don’t have to have a DP. I don’t think it’s barbaric in the least, and I’m glad that we do have it in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/40 "2005-02-24T01:17:11Z")
And what’s funny is that I disagree with **Dave** about the need for the DP, don’t think it’s necessary, and would like ot see it abolished nationally. And we still agree that \*_Dancing Dead_ is being a shrill prat. Ain’t this country great? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520.md?page=3)