# I Pit The Death Penalty ... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520 "2005-02-23T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/81 "2005-03-01T11:29:15Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Ha! > > This is classic. If you really feel this way than why not just get rid of the criminal justice system entirely? I mean, if you insane philosophy of the innate goodness of mankind were correct, then all the laws and all the policemen and all the judges are good for nothing! We would have the same crime rate without them, since people all have the firm sense of right and wrong. What I suggested was that the penalty does not have that much influence on a crime that is about to happen. Especially for lunatics. Surely most murders are a) crimes of “passion” that happen in the heat of the moment (no thought given to consequences), b) pre planned murders (consequences weighed and dismissed) or c) “accidental”. A robbery, fight etc gone wrong (again no thought given to consquences). I don’t believe I am wrong in thinking the majority of us will never be in any of those scenarios. How you think this means I don’t believe in a justice system is beyond me. I do believe that a DP does not act as a deterent. If it did countries with the death penalty would have a 0% murder rate. I do believe that the rate of murders in a country speaks more about how people are treated in that country, then it does about the penalties. For the record NZ’s recent past does not make us one of the good blokes. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/82 "2005-03-01T11:38:50Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Interesting that you would say that, because that demonstrates that reasonable people can have a difference of opinion, however extreme it may be, without becoming a frothing-at-the-mouth jerk like our friend **Arwin** here. > > It is possible for you to hold the position that a fetus is not a child. It is possible for me to hold the position that abortion is murder, the death penalty is acceptable with due process, and one has nothing to do with the other. And **Arwin** is welcome to think about that before more spittle hits his/her computer monitor. I _was_ frothing at the mouth, and I allowed myself this in the pit. I had some good personal reasons for this. But even in that state, bar the \*\*FinnAgain \*\* debacle, I make a more intelligent point than you give me credit for. I did not link pro-life to pro-DP _per se_. I just pitted both in the context of this newsstory. There’s someone pregnant in this story who quite frankly shouldn’t have been. It’s possible to imagine this scenario could have played out differently if the child had been aborted, and 2 lives saved. This is an extreme example, but I read elsewhere about an SD’er who had children at age 17 and 18. She did not enjoy it, and it made her life hell - she wouldn’t have done it again. If back then abortion had been an option for her, she could happily have had children when she was ready for them, with a loving spouse, at say 27. If seeds had the value of fully grown plants, there wouldn’t be a different price tag on them. In fact, a fully grown plant is a _lot_ more valuable than a seed. You’re welcome to … etc., **Sir Airman Doors, USAF** ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/83 "2005-03-01T11:44:37Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So, given the same percentage of falsely convicted people, killing someone convicted of a capital offense via execution is not worse than killing someone convicted of aggravated assault, or forcible rape. Unless it is you. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/84 "2005-03-01T15:56:50Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > I do believe that a DP does not act as a deterent. If it did countries with the death penalty would have a 0% murder rate. That doesn’t follow. It can very well be a partial deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/85 "2005-03-01T16:36:10Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That doesn’t follow. It can very well be a partial deterrent. Could be, but the statistics prove just the opposite. [States with the death penaly have a higher murder rate that states without](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168). > [@](#): > > In the past ten years, the number of executions in the U.S. has increased while the murder rate has declined. Some commentators have maintained that the murder rate has dropped because of the increase in executions (see, e.g., W. Tucker, “Yes, the Death Penalty Deters,” Wall St. Journal, June 21, 2002). However, during this decade **the murder rate in non-death penalty states has remained consistently lower than the rate in states with the death penalty**. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/86 "2005-03-01T17:34:38Z")
> [@unclviny](#): > > One more time with feeling, > The message that I think! the great state of Texas is trying to send is the following: > If you are going to kill someone go somewhere else and do it. Because if you come to Texas and kill someone the state will kill you back. Actually, you made me think of an excellent point: Around here, there’s kind of an attitude that if you live within the laws of the land and adhere to the social compact , you are entitled to the rights and privileges it affords. However, if you break those laws and that compact, you’ve instantly gone into the category of someone outside the community. Rehabilitation, “restorative justice” and in some people’s eyes, life imprisonment for certain crimes seems to many to be an extension of the protections of the community to those who least deserve it. The “pruning of society” that **Weirddave** and \*\* unclviny’s\*\* “Texas will kill you back” mention make perfect sense in this context- the state, as the governing body of the community has a responsibility to deal with those who break the laws and show the members of the community that it adheres to their values. And in Texas anyway, “restorative justice” is seen more or less as giving aid and comfort to the enemy. This social compact and people who are inside/outside of the community defined by it also explains the “he just needed killin’” concept as well- those who are outside the compact deserve little consideration and are looked upon much like a coyote or stray dog would be- something to be eliminated because they’re a threat to the community. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/87 "2005-03-01T18:15:22Z")
For your consideration, I present today’s ruling by the Supreme Court of the United States [banning the death penalty](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aFOLmRUkl3.8&refer=top_world_news) for those under the age of 18. **Justice Anthony M. Kennedy** said those under 18 are essentially stupid kids, cannot be considered the worst offenders out there, and pointed out the > [@](#): > > stark reality that the United States is the only country in the world that continues to give official sanction to the juvenile death penalty. While China and Iran have executed minors recently, officially they denounce the practice, as does every other country on the planet. Justice Antonin Scalia, as you may predict, wrote that the U.S. should never look to other countries for any indication of what is legally correct. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/88 "2005-03-01T18:26:29Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Could be, but the statistics prove just the opposite. [States with the death penaly have a higher murder rate that states without](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168). Fair enough. I think a very sound argument can be made that correlation does not equal causation here, but my only point is that deterrence does not mean incident will go to zero. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/89 "2005-03-01T18:40:55Z")
Just heard about that decision on the AP wire. So now I’m looking through the [offenders Texas has on death row](http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/offendersondrow.htm) and lamenting the fact that I’ll now have to continue to share the Earth with pieces of shit like [Raul Villareal](http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/statistics/deathrow/drowlist/vilareal.jpg) (raped and murdered two teenage girls, stomping on one girl’s throat when “the bitch wouldn’t die,”) and [Mark Arthur](http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/statistics/deathrow/drowlist/vilareal.jpg) (cold-blooded murder for hire). Congratulations, motherfuckers. People who have never heard of you just decided that, unlike your tortured, terrified victims, you get to live. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/90 "2005-03-01T18:50:28Z")
> [@Max Torque](#): > > People who have never heard of you just decided that, unlike your tortured, terrified victims, you get to live. Which makes us more civilized than them. Why does this piss you off? ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/91 "2005-03-01T19:03:44Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Which makes us more civilized than them. Why does this piss you off? I suspect he feels civilised enough for wanting murderers dead, rather than innocent people. In which he has a point. We want to be even more civilised, and we also have a point, but that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/92 "2005-03-01T22:36:43Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > Unless it is you. I don’t follow. If I committed forcible rape or aggravated assault I would feel like I didn’t deserve to live, no less than I think others who commit these acts also do not deserve to live. This does not mean it is worth it to kill those convicted of these crimes, or of murder, because some are wrongly convicted. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/93 "2005-03-01T23:36:53Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I don’t follow. If I committed forcible rape or aggravated assault I would feel like I didn’t deserve to live Really? I find that hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/94 "2005-03-02T00:37:19Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Really? I find that hard to believe. I’ve seen that line of thought used to justify executing the insane. “If we make him sane again, he couldn’t live with the thought of what he’d done.” It’s just a line. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520/95 "2005-03-02T05:08:53Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > It’s just a line. Actually, it probably goes a long way toward explaining why i _haven’t_ committed any felonies. The ones that do have a sense of morality about it don’t commit the crimes as often. Yes, there are always people who self-justify their atrocities, but the majority of people are not like that. Majority of people in prison, perhaps so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-death-penalty/291520.md?page=4)