# I pit the derisive, condenscending, anti-conspiriacy ... \[merged threads\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653 "2012-06-29T02:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/701 "2012-07-17T17:14:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You have not demonstrated that this is so. I haven’t demonstrated that Barack Obama is not the most powerful person on earth? Ok. I have demonstrated, though, that it is possible for there to be a power greater than a superpower, i.e. a power-unto-themself. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the same way, Obama (or any Prez of the US) can be the most powerful man on earth, but bad things- even very bad things- can still happen to America, whether they were put into motion by state actors or non-state actors. What about war? I have demonstrated that governments appear to be the primary locus of war, i.e. the Iraq War and the Korean War. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/702 "2012-07-17T17:18:33Z")
Perhaps we need to define our terms better. When we (meaning the sane people of the world) say a given person is powerful in a political sense, we mean that he (or she) has more influence on other persons than a less powerful person does. A person holding a powerful office, such as the current President of the United States, has more potential and actual influence than a person holding a lesser office, or a representative of a non-state entity. At any given time, because people have free will or something, any given person can choose to not be influenced by the more powerful person. This is not to imply that any person or group of persons acting on their own initiative is absolutely more powerful than any given authority figure, nor is it logical to infer that any individual or group acting in their own interests are under the control of a single actor, it only means that within a certain framework, that authority figure’s influence is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/703 "2012-07-17T17:34:11Z")
Apologies for the double post. > [@Kozmik](#): > > . . . > What about war? I have demonstrated that governments appear to be the primary locus of war, i.e. the Iraq War and the Korean War. Do you believe that governemtn officials cannot be short-sighted, vain, or aggressive enough on their own to start a war? That they need to be coerced into starting a war by the Illuminati? War is good for the ecomony and other growing things. War is the continuation of policy (politics) by other means. We don’t want war, but \*those \*people forced us into it. Given how warlike mankind has been since we started keeping records, I would be more impressed if you had examples of how your Illuminati manipulated world leaders to prevent their pet governments from going to war. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/704 "2012-07-17T17:38:01Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I have demonstrated, though, that it is possible for there to be a power greater than a superpower, i.e. a power-unto-themself. No, you haven’t. You’ve \*said \*there’s a power greater than a superpower. You’ve \*said \*a lot of things that have no basis in reality as well. Just \*saying \*them doesn’t \*demonstrate \*them. > [@](#): > > What about war? I have demonstrated that governments appear to be the primary locus of war, i.e. the Iraq War and the Korean War. That’s fine. That doesn’t need to be “demonstrated”. What needs to be demonstrated is how you go from “governments are the locus of war” to “therefore, the Illuminati runs the world”. And simply saying “the Illuminati runs the world” doesn’t demonstrate it. Here’s a tip - next time you think you’re “demonstrating” something, check to see if you’ve used the word “because” in your paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/705 "2012-07-17T17:47:06Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Kozmik, I have a genuine, sincere question here, and I would be honestly fascinated to hear a truthful answer from you. To make it easy for you, I’ll do it as a multiple choice question. All you have to do is say A, B, C, or D. No further explanation or clarification from you is needed. This is not mocking or derision. I’m actually curious about this. > > Here is the question. Which of the following statements would you say is closest to your true feelings about this thread? I’m not saying that any of them are 100% accurate - just which one is closest? > > A: This thread has gone well. I feel that I have gotten my message across, and it has been received. I have spread knowledge in the world. > > B: I have done a fine job communicating my message, but for some reason, people don’t seem to be understand simple arguments and statements that are to me clear as day. I can’t figure out why that is. > > C: I have done a fine job communicating my message, and it is my belief that the majority of the people arguing against me actually DO know that I am right. They feel the need to act as if the things I am saying are not true for some other motivation, whatever that motivation may be. > > D: This thread has not gone well. I have tried my best to communicate my message, but it appears that I have failed to do so. I know that these other people are intelligent enough to understand what I want to say, so it looks like it is my ability to communicate clearly that is at fault. > > Please, if you only respond to one post next time you log on, make it this one. I’d really like to know. I, too, would like to know **Kozmik** ’s answer to this question, so I am quoting it in case he missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/706 "2012-07-17T17:47:17Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > You’ve \*said \*there’s a power greater than a superpower. I said there _could_ be a power greater than a superpower. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Perhaps we need to define our terms better.. After 700 posts, I think it’s about fucking time. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > When we (meaning the sane people of the world) say a given person is powerful in a political sense, we mean that he (or she) has more influence on other persons than a less powerful person does. Yes. The head of government of a middle power has more influence on other persons than the head of government of a small power, the head of government of a regional power has more influence on other persons than the head of government of a middle power, the head of government of a great power has more influence on other persons than the head of government of a regional power, and the head of government of a superpower has more influence on other persons than the head of government of a great power. Could someone have more influence over other persons than the head of government of a superpower? > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Apologies for the double post. No apology from you necessary. It’s not just war. It’s war and the entire system. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/707 "2012-07-17T18:00:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I said there _could_ be a power greater than a superpower. You’ve said scores of times that that power does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/708 "2012-07-17T18:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I said there could be a power greater than a superpower. And \*saying \*something doesn’t make it true, despite how many times you say it. And regardless, you’ve made countless assertions that there IS the Illuminati, that there IS a number of things that you have presented **absolutely zero evidence of**. Cite: > [@](#): > > The Illuminati is a hyperpower. A hyperpower is not a government. A hyperpower is the direct opposite of a small power. A small power cannot affect the international system alone but with some concerted effort a small power can have an (perceived) impact on the way the system works. The Illuminati is the system. The Illuminati control the 192 heads of government. The Illuminati has more influence over wars than all the emerging superpowers, superpowers, and great powers combined. The Illuminati has more influence over every single person on earth (except someone) than all the emerging superpowers, superpowers, and great powers combined. Saying that you’re merely asserting the possibility is a total fucking lie. So just stop fucking lying, won’t you? Just answer Smeghead’s question already. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/709 "2012-07-17T18:57:20Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Why not? I don’t think the Illuminati exists. You’ve asserted they exist, but you’ve provided no evidence that any organization or person with greater power than the President of the United States exists, much less a secret one. > [@](#): > > Do you? Why? Why not? What is wrong with my assertions? No, I don’t believe that “The Illuminati is the system. The Illuminati control the 192 heads of government.” I don’t believe the Illuminati exists. Everything together can be explained without the Illuminati- plus, there’s no evidence they exist. So I don’t believe in them. > [@](#): > > I haven’t demonstrated that Barack Obama is not the most powerful person on earth? You misread me- I meant you have not demonstrated that anyone has greater power. > [@](#): > > Ok. I have demonstrated, though, that it is possible for there to be a power greater than a superpower, i.e. a power-unto-themself. I don’t think you have… and I don’t know what a “power-unto-themself” means. And while I do think it’s possible that a greater power exists (though not because of anything you’ve said), I have seen no evidence of such a greater power. So I don’t believe in it. I don’t believe in anything until I have evidence of it. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/710 "2012-07-17T19:29:16Z")
What is so weird is that this is exactly opposite how I view the world. I believe all individuals are “powers-unto-themselves,” with the free will that allows them to defy any group or authority if they so choose. As entities move up the hierarchy, to tribes, states, nations, corporations, etc, each of these actors has less freedom than entities on the “lower” level. If there is one person at the top of this pyramid, his freedom would be so constrained by the wills of everyone else in the world that he would be totally impotent. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/711 "2012-07-17T19:52:06Z")
George HW Busch nearly passed out from choking on a pretzel. Does that mean a pretzel has more power than the president of the United States? Bill Clinton’s presidency was nearly derailed by interactions with a White House intern. Does that mean that Monica Lewinski has more power than the president of the United States? Lots of things can affect powerful leaders. It doesn’t imply that there are more powerful forces out there, just that anyone can be affected by events. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/712 "2012-07-17T19:57:54Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If there is one person at the top of this pyramid, his freedom would be so constrained by the wills of everyone else in the world that he would be totally impotent. So it _is_ lonely at the top. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/713 "2012-07-17T20:49:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > George HW Busch nearly passed out from choking on a pretzel. Does that mean a pretzel has more power than the president of the United States? That was George W. Bush. And hey, presidents have had to transfer power several times during surgical procedures. Are anesthesiologists more powerful than the president, too? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/714 "2012-07-17T20:54:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That was George W. Bush. And hey, presidents have had to transfer power several times during surgical procedures. Are anesthesiologists more powerful than the president, too? Yeah, George H.W. Bush vomited on the Japanese prime minister. So, the world is really run by a plate of sushi. (Okay, okay. He didn’t vomit _on_ the prime minister. And it wasn’t because of sushi.) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/715 "2012-07-17T20:59:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Okay, okay. He didn’t vomit _on_ the prime minister. And it wasn’t because of sushi.) That’s right - it was because of the Illuminati. Because things don’t just happen without an overly complicated reason. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/716 "2012-07-17T21:15:52Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s right - it was because of the Illuminati. Because things don’t just happen without an overly complicated reason. It’s almost too simple! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/717 "2012-07-17T21:44:48Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s right - it was because of the Illuminati. Or at least the uni-maki. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/718 "2012-07-17T21:57:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That was George W. Bush. I was, in fact, confusing the pretzel and sushi cartels, in their endless struggle for world domination. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/719 "2012-07-17T22:56:40Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Or at least the uni-maki. If that’s what he was eating, I promise to view his puking in a more sympathetic light. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/720 "2012-07-17T23:07:33Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I was, in fact, confusing the pretzel and sushi cartels, in their endless struggle for world domination. I’m Team Pretzel all the way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653.md?page=37)