# I pit the derisive, condenscending, anti-conspiriacy ... \[merged threads\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653 "2012-06-29T02:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/721 "2012-07-18T01:41:32Z")
That’s twisted. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/722 "2012-07-18T03:35:53Z")
This thread is more Froot Loops than pretzels. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/723 "2012-07-18T03:57:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think the Illuminati exists. You’ve asserted they exist, but you’ve provided no evidence that any organization or person with greater power than the President of the United States exists, much less a secret one. Ok. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I don’t believe that “The Illuminati is the system. The Illuminati control the 192 heads of government.” Ok. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe the Illuminati exists. Everything together can be explained without the Illuminati- plus, there’s no evidence they exist. So I don’t believe in them. Ok. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You misread me- I meant you have not demonstrated that anyone has greater power. Ok. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think you have… and I don’t know what a “power-unto-themself” means. It means power which is greater than the head of government of a superpower, which you don’t believe exists. > [@Marley23](#): > > You’ve said scores of times that that power does exist. I was smug. Now, not so much. > [@Marley23](#): > > Conspiracy kooks would be a lot less aggravating if they weren’t so smug. They’d still be wrong, but they’d be much less intolerable. I don’t want to be smug anymore. > [@Smeghead](#): > > B: I have done a fine job communicating my message, but for some reason, people don’t seem to be understand simple arguments and statements that are to me clear as day. I can’t figure out why that is.. I would answer B because of **iiandyiiii**. > [@Smeghead](#): > > D: This thread has not gone well. I have tried my best to communicate my message, but it appears that I have failed to do so. I know that these other people are intelligent enough to understand what I want to say, so it looks like it is my ability to communicate clearly that is at fault. I would answer D because of everyone else in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/724 "2012-07-18T04:47:30Z")
Finally, someone who disagrees with me _and_ who isn’t derisive and condescending! > [@DrFidelius](#): > > What is so weird is that this is exactly opposite how I view the world. I believe all individuals are “powers-unto-themselves,” with the free will that allows them to defy any group or authority if they so choose. How does war fit into your view that each individual is a power-unto-themself? > [@DrFidelius](#): > > As entities move up the hierarchy, to tribes, states, nations, corporations, etc, each of these actors has less freedom than entities on the “lower” level. If there is one person at the top of this pyramid, his freedom would be so constrained by the wills of everyone else in the world that he would be totally impotent. Why would the person at the top of the pyramid be totally impotent? I believe that this person would _appear_ to be totally impotent. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/725 "2012-07-18T11:30:23Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > . . . > > How does war fit into your view that each individual is a power-unto-themself? > > . . . That is such a cute and naïve idea. War is easy. War is the natural condition of Mankind. Read you r history, there have always been wars (and not just in an Orwellian “Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia” sense). Wars have been happening since the first time two neighbours realized they can cooperate and kill or drive away a third neighbour. As long as individuals are driven by jealousy, fear, vengeance, or greed there will be wars. We are getting better. A hundred years ago, the European nations did not recognize the rights of native, brown-skinned people to even own the lands they lived upon. Read up on the Belgian Congo, or the American experience in the Philippines. If it were part of the Illuminati’s plan back then to allow such empires, why did they allow them all to collapse? Have the Illuminati’s goals changed that much in just the past century? Can you tell the difference between the achievement of a goal and simply recognizing a result? Peace is difficult, but we seem to be learning how to achieve that. But there is nothing in history that requires anything more complex than groups of individuals trying to achieve personal goals. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/726 "2012-07-18T11:55:23Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I would answer B because of **iiandyiiii**. > > I would answer D because of everyone else in this thread. Sigh. How did I know we weren’t going to get a simple one-letter answer out of you? However, you seem to be saying that for most of the thread, you agree that the problem is that YOU are not communicating clearly, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/727 "2012-07-18T14:43:15Z")
The Kiss Cam at a women’s basketball game is more powerful than Obama. Do the Illuminati control that? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/728 "2012-07-18T19:54:54Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Have the Illuminati’s goals changed that much in just the past century? I’ve heard that the illuminati were basically liberal atheists intent on bringing enlightenment values to the globe. Now that could be interpreted as suppressing as many people as possible with neoliberal globalisation for the benefit of an elite cabal, but I’m fairly sure it was misdirection in a similar thread. It always nudges people in just the wrong direction when one says “yes, I believe the illuminati exist and I agree with their goals”. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/729 "2012-07-18T20:28:58Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If it were part of the Illuminati’s plan back then to allow such empires, why did they allow them all to collapse? Have the Illuminati’s goals changed that much in just the past century? Can you tell the difference between the achievement of a goal and simply recognizing a result? That’s what I asked/suggested on Page 2 or 3. If the Illuminati’s goals are subjugation and rule, they are incredibly fucking incompetent, as Humanity has steadily moved away from such things. It would seem that they either do not exist (most likely), or their goals are more enlightened than the CT advocates believe. Given their name.. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/730 "2012-07-18T20:46:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Kiss Cam at a women’s basketball game is more powerful than Obama. Do the Illuminati control that? Michelle is more powerful than Barrack. Do the Illuminati control her? Or does she control the Illuminati?!? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/731 "2012-07-18T21:30:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think Stuxnet was written by the kids at [Mamram](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamram) Sorry, didn’t read the whole thread, too much crazy for my tastes. In case this has already been cleared up, mea culpa, but [it was recently revealed that Stuxnet was an American creation with Israeli help.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/stuxnet-was-work-of-us-and-israeli-experts-officials-say/2012/06/01/gJQAlnEy6U_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/732 "2012-07-18T21:42:09Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > However, you seem to be saying that for most of the thread, you agree that the problem is that YOU are not communicating clearly, correct? Correct. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > If it were part of the Illuminati’s plan back then to allow such empires, why did they allow them all to collapse? As I suggested in post #724, so that the person who is above the Illuminati would _appear_ to be totally impotent. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > But there is nothing in history that requires anything more complex than groups of individuals trying to achieve personal goals. More like 192 governments trying to achieve national goals. What is the national goal of the United States? What is the national goal of Iran? Poland? Saudi Arabia? North Korea? Mali? Israel? Singapore? What is the international goal of the Illuminati? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/733 "2012-07-18T23:01:11Z")
\*\*Kosmik \*\*- am I correct in my understanding that you believe that a hierarchic order must be imposed on the masses from the top? If you do believe that, then you are wrong. Our current system of nation-states evolved naturally from below. An individual’s loyalty and influence begins in the family group, extends to clans, tribes, sports franchises, and nations. Any individual can, at different times and in different ways, express his support of any group he identifies with. This support can often be contradictory, and the sum total of all the support given by all the individuals defines “national goals.” The specific individual who leads a given group (family, clan, or nation) does so because of the will of those being led. There is no uber-authority designating who shall be leader and who shall be the followers. Obama is a very powerful man right now, but only because we the people allow and believe in the office he currently holds. The political world is still run by our primitive, territorial monkey brains, just writ larger. Powerful individuals are powerful because they are pushed up from below, not because they are designated from above. There is no group of secret puppetmasters, and the public puppetmasters are only trying to manipulate minor things like the economy to enrich themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/734 "2012-07-18T23:45:31Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > \*\*Kosmik \*\*- am I correct in my understanding that you believe that a hierarchic order must be imposed on the masses from the top? No. The 192 heads of government would be an example of a coequal order. No one would suggest that the 192 heads of government must be imposed on the masses from the top. I’m suggesting that the Illuminati must be imposed on the 192 heads of government from the top. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Our current system of nation-states evolved naturally from below. Yes, and currently there are 192 of them. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Powerful individuals are powerful because they are pushed up from below, not because they are designated from above. How does Stalin and Hitler fit into that view? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/735 "2012-07-18T23:48:54Z")
Snugly. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/736 "2012-07-19T00:33:06Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How does Stalin and Hitler fit into that view? Both the stalinist movement and the nazi movement were fairly popular – in fact, they were virtually the definition of “populist movement”. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/737 "2012-07-19T02:26:49Z")
I am unclear on one thing? How many countries are there? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/738 "2012-07-19T10:01:57Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > No. The 192 heads of government would be an example of a coequal order. No one would suggest that the 192 heads of government must be imposed on the masses from the top. I’m suggesting that the Illuminati must be imposed on the 192 heads of government from the top. Forgive me, but from readings of your earlier posts I was under the impression that you categorized the various world governments into a hierarchy of “powers”, with the single “superpower” on top. Was I misreading you? > [@Kozmik](#): > > How does Stalin and Hitler fit into that view? Very well. An ambitious individual can use his influences to “game the system” and gain the support of the masses. This is often a metastable situation, corrected by the individual efforts of persons outside that leader’s direct influence (as in the case of Hitler) or by having their legacy and goals repudiated internally by rivals (as in the case of Stalin). What is it about those two gentlemen which makes you feel they don’t fit the individual empowerment vision of history? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/739 "2012-07-19T10:04:21Z")
Oh! oh! I’ve got a joke! okay okay okay… What does a toe nail clipper and Phillip Seymore Hoffman have in common? punchline: The Illuminati! ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/740 "2012-07-19T10:09:26Z")
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