# I pit the derisive, condenscending, anti-conspiriacy ... \[merged threads\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653 "2012-06-29T02:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/781 "2012-07-20T04:29:24Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > They are not the 192 heads of government, they are not the Jews, they are not even Queen Elizabeth II and Pope Benedict XIV. How do you know they aren’t? If you can’t say who they are, how can you know that any of the above groups or people aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/782 "2012-07-20T05:14:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But the moderators at the SDMB can control what \*\*Kozmik \*\*posts here, so therefore… ..he’s a witch! ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/783 "2012-07-20T07:30:07Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > To tell you the truth, I do not actually care who your Illuminati might be. I am trying to work out why reports of politicians talking to each other about other politicians (which is basically what we pay them to do) somehow indicates a secret cabal is controlling the world. Barack Obama can communicate to the head of government of Russia, the head of government of Japan, the head of govenment of Iran, the head of government of Saudi Arabia, and he can communicate to the 187 other heads of government. From this fact, I have the following questions for you: Is this the highest level of politics? Why? Why not? Could there be a higher level of politics? Why? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/784 "2012-07-20T10:17:14Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Barack Obama can communicate to the head of government of Russia, the head of government of Japan, the head of govenment of Iran, the head of government of Saudi Arabia, and he can communicate to the 187 other heads of government. > From this fact, I have the following questions for you: > > Is this the highest level of politics? Why? Why not? > > Could there be a higher level of politics? Why? Why not? Your questions do not follow from the premise, and so I ask where you think you are leading me. Politics, as defined as the interactions between sovereign entities, has many levels. If you are asking about international interactions, then no, I do not believe that one head of state speaking with another is the “highest level of politics.” I happen to believe in international law, and the United Nations as a arbitrating authority over national governments, in the conduct of international affairs. There are also regional organizations, such as NATO, ANZAC, and the Organization of American States, where representatives (not the heads) of the various governments meet and arbitrate “local” issues. But I feel this is not the answer you are fishing for. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/785 "2012-07-20T10:50:08Z")
I just noticed **Kozmik** registred way back in 2004. Has he always held these kind of beliefs? If not, what did he use to be like? And what happened? Feel free to answer the question yourself, **Kozmik** : Have you always held these views? If not, when did you first start believing in the Illuminati and such? And what led you to it? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/786 "2012-07-20T11:16:20Z")
Also, to continue on this train of thought… I agree that Heads of State rarely if ever act as independent persons. But that restriction is imposed from below them in the government; from lower level and not higher levels. When you see two heads of state sitting in the special chairs and signing an agreement, neither of them actually wrote the treaty they are signing. Their meeting to ratify an accord is the culmination of hundreds of man-hours of work by persons in their State departments. They are acting as symbols of their governments, not as independently “powerful” persons. The handshake or communication in the news is more theatre than politics (the two fields overlap to a great extent) while all the real work is done by bureaucrats. **Kozmik** , you seem to have a very simplistic concept of “power.” Political power is not a linear scale, with person A being above person D and so on down the line through 7 billion people to a three-year-old orphan girl in Bali. International political power is a network, with no one person or position being absolutely supreme over all other persons. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/787 "2012-07-20T11:39:27Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > So you won’t accuse me of being cryptic, I’m alluding to something that is is the news. It’s called diplomacy. And the reason that war is not coming into consideration is because of MAD, not because of the Illuminati. If Russia was unarmed, then yes, maybe we could just ignore their will and push it through anyways, or strongarm them into agreement. But they have more nukes, so we can’t. > [@Kozmik](#): > > They are not the 192 heads of government, they are not the Jews, they are not even Queen Elizabeth II and Pope Benedict XIV. They are not Jim Belushi. They are not Arnold Silvestri. They are not the Boy Scouts of America. They are not Kratos. They are not Woody. They are not Jim Beam. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Direct question: are _you_ the Illuminati? And if you (as expected) deny it, how can we accept that? Can you prove you _aren’t_ the Illuminati? > > Without such proof, we must question your motives, as they harmonize with a well-known Illuminati misdirection strategy. > > You’re not the only one who can connect the dots, you know. They are not Kozmik. Because that would just be kinda sad. Come on. > [@Telemark](#): > > But the moderators at the SDMB can control what \*\*Kozmik \*\*posts here, so therefore… The smash community has a term for this: “Inui Logic”. “I beat player X, and player X beat player Y, therefore I am better than player Y”. Never mind that player Y stomps my face. Lol. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/788 "2012-07-20T13:37:01Z")
As Winston Churchill might have said, _ **"The terrible Mehs accumulate."** _ ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/789 "2012-07-20T14:33:29Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But the moderators at the SDMB can control what \*\*Kozmik \*\*posts here, so therefore… To take to its logical conclusion, Ed Zotti is God. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/790 "2012-07-20T14:47:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > To take to its logical conclusion, Ed Zotti is God. Conclusion? I thought that was an axiom around here. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/791 "2012-07-20T17:33:39Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > They are not the 192 heads of government, they are not the Jews, they are not even Queen Elizabeth II and Pope Benedict XIV. Unfortunately, there are about 7 _billion_ people in the world who all qualify under that description. A definition that includes almost everyone on the planet isn’t very useful in narrowing it down. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/792 "2012-07-20T17:40:50Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Unfortunately, there are about 7 _billion_ people in the world who all qualify under that description. A definition that includes almost everyone on the planet isn’t very useful in narrowing it down. Prediction for Kozmik’s response: Exactly! See everyone? Cheshire Human understands me! ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/793 "2012-07-20T18:25:32Z")
These are not the Illuminati you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/794 "2012-07-20T18:57:53Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Unfortunately, there are about 7 _billion_ people in the world who all qualify under that description. A definition that includes almost everyone on the planet isn’t very useful in narrowing it down. Yes, he’s failed to rule out 99.8% of us. And actually that was counting “The Jews” as every single person who could be considered Jewish in religious or ethnic terms. Even anti-Semitic maniacs probably don’t believe the world is run by a conspiracy made up of every single Jew in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/795 "2012-07-20T19:32:00Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > It’s the Girl Scouts isn’t it. The Girl Scouts are the Illuminati what with their pushing their ‘cookies’ on people. And now they’re in cahoots with Nestle!! So either the Girl Scouts or Nestle is the Illuminati. "Wow. I never knew the Girl Scouts were responsible for the crop circle phenomenon. " ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/796 "2012-07-20T20:38:40Z")
Actually, cats as the Illuminati make sense. They’re good at manipulating their supposed masters- ask any cat “owner”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/797 "2012-07-20T21:09:45Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Actually, cats as the Illuminati make sense. They’re good at manipulating their supposed masters- ask any cat “owner”. [The plot even includes mind control.](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127955946) ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/798 "2012-07-21T07:48:41Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s called diplomacy. Specifically, [track II diplomacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_II_diplomacy). > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Heads of State rarely if ever act as independent persons. Why is that? > [@DrFidelius](#): > > But that restriction is imposed from below them in the government; from lower level and not higher levels. How is that possible? > [@DrFidelius](#): > > When you see two heads of state sitting in the special chairs and signing an agreement, neither of them actually wrote the treaty they are signing. Their meeting to ratify an accord is the culmination of hundreds of man-hours of work by persons in their State departments. They are acting as symbols of their governments, not as independently “powerful” persons. Could you see an occasion where Barack Obama would be meeting with the 191 other heads of government - and no one else? A meeting on [an island](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Island,_Georgia#G8_summit) (or an undisclosed location) where there is literally only 192 people on the island (or at the undisclosed location) at the time? There’s the G-8 summit. There’s the 8-20 summit. Could there be the G-192 summit? > [@DrFidelius](#): > > **Kozmik** , you seem to have a very simplistic concept of “power.” Political power is not a linear scale, with person A being above person D and so on down the line through 7 billion people to a three-year-old orphan girl in Bali. International political power is a network, with no one person or position being absolutely supreme over all other persons. There’s coequal power - the power that 192 people in the world possess. This coequal power is international political power. International political power is a network, with no one person being absolutely supreme over all other persons. I believe that could be a power greater than international political power. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Politics, as defined as the interactions between sovereign entities, has many levels. Ok. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > If you are asking about international interactions, then no, I do not believe that one head of state speaking with another is the "highest level of politics.. What do you believe is the highest level of politics? > [@DrFidelius](#): > > I happen to believe in international law, and the United Nations as a arbitrating authority over national governments, in the conduct of international affairs. But the UN, like NATO, is [composed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations) of national governments. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/799 "2012-07-21T12:46:10Z")
The heads of governments are \*representatives \*of those governments, and not the government itself. They are restricted in their actions by law, tradition, and the goals of all the other members of their government. Even if all 192 current heads of governments had a super-secret meeting, any actions proposed or agreed upon would need to be ratified by their congresses, parliaments, politburos, regional governors, etc. for it to take effect. In a real-life summit meeting, nothing is brought to the table without having been checked, approved, vetted, and discussed among many, many persons in lower levels of government. The leaders only debate items already prepared for them by their advisers. As I had said, you have constructed a fantasy version of how politics is conducted, and your extrapolations from your faulty premise are absurd. That is why everyone else here is publicly laughing at you and mocking your “deep” insights. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/800 "2012-07-21T15:20:10Z")
Say what you will about the “9/11 was an inside job!” crowd at least they present arguments. They may be poor, easily refuted arguments, but at least they’ll do you the courtesy of explaining why they think what they think. They’ll say things like: “The fire couldn’t have melted the beams.” “The collapse of building 7 is to even to be anything but controlled demolition.” “There were eyewitness reports of explosions.” **Kozmi** doesn’t even make it to that stage. He presents nothing, and, guys, it’s a fools errand to expect anything more out of him than we’ve already seen. In his mind, I’m sure everything he’s saying makes sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653.md?page=41)