# I pit the derisive, condenscending, anti-conspiriacy ... \[merged threads\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653 "2012-06-29T02:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/121 "2012-07-03T19:27:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But if you step back and look at the totality of the evidence you may realize that the Illuminati don’t exist, The Illuminati explains what changed and what stayed the same before, during, and after the Cold War. > [@Telemark](#): > > and that no external entity is necessary to explain world affairs. The Illuminati would be an external entity. I am claiming that the Illuminati is necessary to explain world affairs. Can you refute my claim? The only people in the world who would know whether or not the Illuminati exist are people like Mario Monti, François Hollande, Angela Merkel, Mohamed Morsi, Benigno Aquino, Enrique Peña Nieto, Vladimir Putin, and Barack Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/122 "2012-07-03T19:29:30Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The Illuminati explains what changed and what stayed the same before, during, and after the Cold War. No, it doesn’t. You’re suggesting you don’t know much about politics _and_ that your grip on reality is kind of shaky. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/123 "2012-07-03T19:42:22Z")
Which world affairs can’t be explained without th Illuminati? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/124 "2012-07-03T19:50:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it doesn’t. You’re suggesting you don’t know much about politics _and_ that your grip on reality is kind of shaky. I studied political science and philosophy in college. I expressed my views in the student newspaper. I should ignore your cracks at me because it is really insulting. However, I respect you too much, at least I still do. > [@Alessan](#): > > Which world affairs can’t be explained without th Illuminati? World affairs near the highest level as between presidents of countries. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/125 "2012-07-03T19:52:19Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I studied political science and **philosophy** in college. Well, there’s your problem. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/126 "2012-07-03T19:53:20Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, there’s your problem. :rolleyes: What about political science? Those aren’t the only subjects I studied. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/127 "2012-07-03T19:57:30Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I studied political science and philosophy in college. OK. So what? I realize I’m being rude here (because you strung people along for about a dozen pages before your post this morning), but I’m not kidding. You are writing as if you are at least partially detached from reality. What you are saying is not sane. > [@](#): > > I expressed my views in the student newspaper. Because if there’s one thing mentally ill people don’t do, it’s write letters to the editor. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/128 "2012-07-03T20:01:00Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I > > World affairs near the highest level as between presidents of countries. Like what? Give us something you don’t understand, and let’s see if we can’t explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/129 "2012-07-03T20:04:33Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The Illuminati explains what changed and what stayed the same before, during, and after the Cold War. No, it doesn’t. Simply repeating unsupported claptrap doesn’t make it any more reasonable. There is no Illuminati, and there’s nothing that needs explaining. Name ONE SINGLE EVENT that can’t be explained by existing well understood political machinations? > [@](#): > > The Illuminati would be an external entity. I am claiming that the Illuminati is necessary to explain world affairs. Can you refute my claim? Yes. There’s no need for them. Can you refute my claim that turtles are responsible for all major political events since the Cold War? > [@](#): > > The only people in the world who would know whether or not the Illuminati exist are people like Mario Monti, François Hollande, Angela Merkel, Mohamed Morsi, Benigno Aquino, Enrique Peña Nieto, Vladimir Putin, and Barack Obama. And this is why you come across as a whack job. Your postings are beginning to resemble paranoid rantings. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/130 "2012-07-03T20:08:26Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And this is why you come across as a whack job. Your postings are beginning to resemble paranoid rantings. “Beginning to”? ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/131 "2012-07-03T20:10:04Z")
**KOZ** okay I am probably going to regret doing this but I will bite the apple, drink the kool-aid whatever. If I have this all correct, you are saying a small group of people(illumaniti) are running the show as to international relations and you have cracked the code. Please give your fellow Dopers the following info 1 Give us one incident that demonstrates power and influence of this group, with supporting details and evidence 2 What does this group have as an end goal and how do they intend to achieve it? 3 Why does this group exist and when was it founded and by whom? Thanks for playing **CAPT** ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/132 "2012-07-03T20:49:50Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And this is why you come across as a whack job. Your postings are beginning to resemble paranoid rantings. [QUOTE=The New York Times, July 3, 2012] “In terms of unelected people, he is by far the most powerful in the democratic world,” said Franklin Allen, a professor of finance and economics at the University of Pennslvania’s Wharton School. [/QUOTE] I’m just going by what Professor Allen said. There’s elected people like Barack Obama and then there’s unelected people like Mario Draghi. > [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > What does this group have as an end goal and how do they intend to achieve it? Hard to tell. Who would have thought 12 years ago we would have the [global financial crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932012_global_financial_crisis)? Possbile goals: Converge opposing sides. Transform the current political-economic order into a social-economic order. Instead of Orwell’s perpetual war, perpetual social transformation. Between economic crisis and war there is something else - The battle over the future. [Orwell](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four) was probably right: “Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/133 "2012-07-03T21:03:09Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I am claiming that the Illuminati is necessary to explain world affairs. Can you refute my claim? We don’t have to refute it, because you’ve as yet given us nothing to refute. _You_ must first _actually_ demonstrate _why_ 1)“the Illuminati is necessary to explain world affairs”, and 2) _how_ your Illuminati theory explains those world affairs. Until you do, we have nothing to refute. You haven’t made an actual claim, yet. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/134 "2012-07-03T21:16:30Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I’m just going by what Professor Allen said. There’s elected people like Barack Obama and then there’s unelected people like Mario Draghi. The fact that there are powerful unelected people in the world - a fact that’s surprising to no-one - does not mean that these powerful unelected people are working together, or working in secret. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/135 "2012-07-03T21:17:00Z")
And here we go again. The state of the world is as it is- meaning it might be a confusing mess, but it’s not totally unintelligible. You have to twist yourself into knots to make a secret (but known?) New World Order/Illuminati make sense, usually by saying they have vague goals and just benefit from every conceivable situation. That’s not much of a theory, and as people pointed out a ton of times in the GD thread, you have no evidence the Illuminati exist or that they existed through the 19th and 20th centuries. This is a paranoid fantasy, and not the fun kind. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/136 "2012-07-03T21:25:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The fact that there are powerful unelected people in the world - a fact that’s surprising to no-one - does not mean that these powerful unelected people are working together, or working in secret. In fact, they are very often at each others’ throats. A conspiracy theory does explain everything you want it to, that’s true. But it’s still either your own invention, or somebody else’s that you choose to believe, like a religion. It’s not based on reality. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/137 "2012-07-03T21:30:26Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > We don’t have to refute it, because you’ve as yet given us nothing to refute. _You_ must first _actually_ demonstrate _why_ 1)“the Illuminati is necessary to explain world affairs”, and 2) _how_ your Illuminati theory explains those world affairs. Until you do, we have nothing to refute. You haven’t made an actual claim, yet. September 11, 2001 cannot be explained by reference to [any country](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population) (Al Qaeda); however, December 7, 1941 can be explained by reference to a country, Japan. Possible candidates for persons being more powerful than Barack Obama are Mario Draghi and Anders Rasmussen. (See what Professor Franklin Allen said about Mario Draghi in _The New York Times_.) > [@Alessan](#): > > does not mean that these powerful unelected people are working together, or working in secret. See also: September 11, 2001. > [@Marley23](#): > > This is a paranoid fantasy, and not the fun kind. The future is the stuff of paranoid fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/138 "2012-07-03T21:37:46Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > See also: September 11, 2001. I did. From 21st and Broadway, in fact. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/139 "2012-07-03T21:41:27Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > September 11, 2001 cannot be explained by reference to [any country](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population) (Al Qaeda); however, December 7, 1941 can be explained by reference to a country, Japan. Again, what the fuck are you talking about? Al Qaeda was behind the attacks and it’s not a country, but why the fuck is the Illuminati necessary? Al Qaeda already exists! ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653/140 "2012-07-03T22:30:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Al Qaeda already exists! Yeah. And George W. Bush was behind the Iraq War and Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War. Don’t fucking patronize me, man! > [@Alessan](#): > > I did. From 21st and Broadway, in fact. > > What’s your point? This: > [@Alessan](#): > > I think the logic is as follows: > > a. Stuxnet was initiated and implemented by a small group of people acting more-or-less independently of national governments. > > b. Therefore, everything is initiated and implemented by small groups of people acting more-or-less independently of national governments. > > c. Therefore, everything is initiated and implemented by _the same_ small group of people acting more-or-less independently of national governments. > > The problem is, of course, that a. does not prove b., and b. does not prove c. It does not prove it; however, it is **evidence** for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-derisive-condenscending-anti-conspiriacy-merged-threads/626653.md?page=8)