# I Pit the Empire **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559 "2010-11-05T08:14:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/221 "2010-11-08T02:52:37Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Freedom of press restrictions? There are literally dozens of independent newspapers and magazines widely available, many of the openly hostile to Lukashenko. > [@BBC News](#): > > Official newspapers are subsidised, while opposition print media have faced increased charges and have been forced to change name, close down, or publish abroad. > [@Commissar](#): > > Moreover, in order to tune in to either Russian OR Western European broadcasts, you simply pick up the remote and hit the “power” button. Voila! > [@BBC News](#): > > TV is the main source of news. The four national channels are state-controlled; their main competitors are Russian networks. > [@Commissar](#): > > Internet? Full access to everything and anything, no censorship. I simply cannot fathom how anyone’s freedom of the press is being suppressed when the government does not seem to be doing anything at all to limit access to information. > [@BBC News](#): > > The web is used by the opposition to make its voice heard. There were around 4.4 million internet users by June 2010 (InternetWorldStats). > > RSF says a “burgeoning internet has only recently come to the attention of the censoring authorities”. **Under a 2010 presidential edict, ISPs must identify the devices used by web users and keep records of services rendered.** Source:[BBC News - Belarus country profile](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1102180.stm) Fuck. If you’re going to extol the glories of socialism why don’t you discuss Sweden? Is it because they weren’t part of the glorious people’s revolution and they’d punch you for comparing them to the USSR? Why the hell are you singing the praises of “Europe’s only remaining ‘outpost of tyranny’”? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/222 "2010-11-08T03:14:05Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > That’s a ridiculous argument, and I think you know it. > > No matter how many times the Teabaggers and other right-wing Imperial crazies claim to the contrary, a wall is just a wall. It does not acquire an angelic aura of rightness based on the direction that the guns are pointed. When you’re the person getting sniped out, you hardly care about whether they got you coming or going… I take it back. Apparently you are that obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/223 "2010-11-08T03:26:03Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I take it back. Apparently you are that obtuse. I think he’s doing pretty good. I’d have broken character by now. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/224 "2010-11-08T03:36:19Z")
Did you notice how the OP didn’t bother to respond to the question of the necessity of the Wall of Berlin? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/225 "2010-11-08T03:37:37Z")
How about the necessity of the gulags? Or did he even mention them? How about allowing criticism of the state? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/226 "2010-11-08T03:47:39Z")
You are part of the Rebel Alliance, and a Traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/227 "2010-11-08T04:37:58Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > People will try to escape anything as long as you tell them that they can’t leave. It just seems to be human nature; put a fence around Utopia, and the Utopians will try to climb over it en masse just to see what the hell is on the other side. > > The reason for the wall was, of course, the split city of Berlin. If we hadn’t given you control of half the city out of the goodness of our hearts, we would have never needed the wall, and no one would ever have needed to die on it. The road to Hell being paved with good intentions, and all that… The only reason the Wall and the Iron Curtain in general existed was because vast numbers of people wanted to escape. When the Wall and Curtain started to collapse floods of people started leaving; that wasn’t because they liked life under Communism. [3.5 million Germans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall) fled East Germany before the Wall was elected. That isn’t just a few “utopians”. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/228 "2010-11-08T07:12:50Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > Official newspapers are subsidised, while opposition print media have faced increased charges and have been forced to change name, close down, or publish abroad. > > TV is the main source of news. The four national channels are state-controlled; their main competitors are Russian networks. You lack an argument here. So, there are state-owned newspapers and TV stations, and we must hence piss ourselves in fear? Why? We’re socialists; we subsidize things. As long as there are opportunities for alternative media distributors to get their message out (and you admit that there are), this does much to help our people and absolutely nothing to harm them. Go cry “wolf” elsewhere. > [@](#): > > RSF says a “burgeoning internet has only recently come to the attention of the censoring authorities”. Under a 2010 presidential edict, ISPs must identify the devices used by web users and keep records of services rendered. Once again, I’m unconcerned. Keeping track of online actions? You mean the exact same thing that ISPs already do, anyway? The exact same thing that the US government can easily subpoena using a National Security Letter as provided for by the Patriot Act? Did you know that the US government currently uses these NSLs tens of thousands of times a year? Are you shaking in fear now? Frankly, when I’m online in Belarus, I feel a lot safer than when your DOJ and FBI dogs are involved. Also, to drive one final nail into your weak argument’s rotting coffin, don’t forget that computer clubs are widely available, highly popular, and quite cheap in Belarus. Anyone that requires complete privacy can drop a couple cents for a session therein. That way, the actions logged by the ISP cannot be matched back to any individual. > [@](#): > > Fuck. If you’re going to extol the glories of socialism why don’t you discuss Sweden? Is it because they weren’t part of the glorious people’s revolution and they’d punch you for comparing them to the USSR? Why the hell are you singing the praises of “Europe’s only remaining ‘outpost of tyranny’”? Oh, and you’re going to tell me which forms of socialism I should support now? I happen to believe that Sweden, while socialist, corrupted a central tenet of our philosophy by embracing multiple parties in its political system. This makes it weak, and weakness makes it unimpressive. Also, I only ever hear the “only remaining outpost…” and similar slurs from people that would like to see a Europe completely dominated by capitalist dogma. Face it, it’s not our politics you don’t like - it’s our unrepentant love of socialism. Don’t let your biases and your hate blind you, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/229 "2010-11-08T07:27:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How about the necessity of the gulags? Or did he even mention them? How about allowing criticism of the state? “Gulag” is a derogatory term mostly used by the West (we would call it a “colony,” “camp,” or a “zone”). Anyway, you’re asking about the necessity of maximum-security prisons, right? I would say they’re pretty damn necessary, and I would also say that your people seem to agree. San Quentin was still there last time I saw it… Unless you would rather we simply shot all our convicts, prisons are somewhat a modern necessity. Let me know when you come up with a better system, though. As for criticism of the state… I see nothing wrong with it. Free speech is more or less harmless, so I would grant it as a freebie. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/230 "2010-11-08T10:40:53Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > No, they do not. > > However, your legitimacy in questioning someone else’s minor mistakes while sitting on a pile of corpses and drinking the blood of millions of innocent people is entirely open to debate. I live in China, BTW… ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/231 "2010-11-08T12:25:56Z")
Oh, come ON, people! What does he need to do, start complaining about the Three Billy Goats Gruff trampling on his roof? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/232 "2010-11-08T13:47:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [3.5 million Germans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall) fled East Germany before the Wall was **elected**. That isn’t just a few “utopians”. You can vote for walls? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/233 "2010-11-08T15:01:45Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You can vote for walls? Well, it’s not like there aren’t already plenty of politicians who are as thick as a brick. The wall has them beat on volume at least. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/234 "2010-11-08T15:08:00Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You can vote for walls? You can. Don’t blame me, though - I voted for Kodos! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/235 "2010-11-08T15:22:45Z")
Calling Belarus a “powerhouse” is a bit of a stretch - I mean, it ranks 61st on the UNDP Human Development Index. That puts it in the “high human development” category, right below Serbia and above a few European democracies (Georgia, Ukraine, Bosnia, and Macedonia). It’s also, amusingly, slightly above Russia (at 65th). But the overwhelming majority of European states, even Eastern European states, clear the top 40 of the HDI. For a European country, even a former Soviet state, Belarus is underperforming badly. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/236 "2010-11-08T15:32:35Z")
It’s also interesting to note that the Belarussian model doesn’t seem to be very good at eliminating income inequality. The UNDP figures ([http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/](http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/)) put Belarus’ Gini coefficient at 28.8. The important thing about this figure is that is measures _income inequality_ - the gap between rich and poor. It’s a comparitive figure - that is, you can have a very poor country that still has a very low GINI coefficient, which would tend to suggest (at least in your view) a highly equitible and just distributino of resources. I’ll freely admit that the American Gini coefficient is wretched, at 40 - this is something we need to fix. However, the interesting thing is that _Norway_ - which, incidentally, tops the UNDP HDI - has a Gini coefficient of 25.8. In other words, it manages to maintain a very high level of income equality _while_ maintaining multi-party democracy and capitalism (albeit with more socialism than we’d tolerate in the US). Belarus clamps down hard on the democratic process and private sector, and _still_ doesn’t manage to match free and capitalist Norway in eliminating income inequality. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/237 "2010-11-08T15:47:17Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > You can. Don’t blame me, though - I voted for Kodos! Kodos for “The Conscience of the King” reference. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/238 "2010-11-08T17:08:25Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > People will try to escape anything as long as you tell them that they can’t leave. It just seems to be human nature; put a fence around Utopia, and the Utopians will try to climb over it en masse just to see what the hell is on the other side. > > The reason for the wall was, of course, the split city of Berlin. If we hadn’t given you control of half the city out of the goodness of our hearts, we would have never needed the wall, and no one would ever have needed to die on it. The road to Hell being paved with good intentions, and all that… > > Incidentally, that death figure you posted is not as drastic as you make it seem. 171 deaths over a period of 28 years comes out to just slightly more than 6 deaths a year. You slaughter more innocent Afghani and Iraqi civilians AN HOUR, so you can just get right off of that moral high horse again, friend. > > Moreover, I notice that the Empire is now building it’s own massive version of the Berlin Wall on ITS borders. Let’s compare death rates again in 28 years, then, and see whether you still think that the Red Army was unduly trigger-happy. Tell them they can’t leave? Why would a society do that? I never made 171 deaths seem drastic. I made it seem more like state sponsored murder I thought. And yes. I’d love to compare the relative number of deaths in 28 years. Given the fact that we don’t turn automatic weapons lose on our citizens for crossing the border, I think you might lose this one. In fact, we don’t do much more than round up those entering our country illegally, give them water, feed them, provide any medical care necessary, then send them back to their own country. Compare that to executing someone for climbing a fence and lets talk some more about the high ground. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/239 "2010-11-08T18:33:23Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > You lack an argument here. So, there are state-owned newspapers and TV stations, and we must hence piss ourselves in fear? Why? We’re socialists; we subsidize things. Subsidize does not mean the same thing as state-controlled. NPR is subsidized, but not state-controlled. And this particular tangent was about Belarus not having freedom of the press. It doesn’t. But the main point of my first post that you’ve studiously ignored was that Belarus is a festering pit of human rights violations. > [@](#): > > As long as there are opportunities for alternative media distributors to get their message out (and you admit that there are) Yes, they can get their message out by publishing abroad? In general most people don’t take “having to leave the country in order to talk about the government” as a sign of freedom of speech or freedom of the press. Especially if Belarus decides to take you up on the belief that people leaving the country should be shot. > [@](#): > > Frankly, when I’m online in Belarus, I feel a lot safer than when your DOJ and FBI dogs are involved. Okay, how often do you log on from Belarus? By your own admission you are a permanent resident (and most likely a naturalized citizen) of the United States of America currently, and for quite some time, living in the United States. I’m guessing this is entirely hypothetical on your part. Oh, hey! Is the real reason you’re still in the Evil Empire ™ that you hate so much because you’re afraid we’ll shoot you if you try to emigrate? It’s cool, we aren’t East Germany. > [@](#): > > Also, to drive one final nail into your weak argument’s rotting coffin, don’t forget that computer clubs are widely available, highly popular, and quite cheap in Belarus. Anyone that requires complete privacy can drop a couple cents for a session therein. What, they charge? That’s worse than the Evil Empire ™. Even us capitalist pig-dogs can get free internet at public libraries. Clearly we’re better at providing for the common good of the people. > [@](#): > > Oh, and you’re going to tell me which forms of socialism I should support now? I happen to believe that Sweden, while socialist, corrupted a central tenet of our philosophy by embracing multiple parties in its political system. This makes it weak, and weakness makes it unimpressive. Yeah, I pretty much am. One of the two is a country that ranks at the top or near it in every outside measure among all the nations in the world. The other is the worst in the Western world. Here’s a hint, Sweden isn’t known for massive human rights violations. And it’s neat that you’re openly going with the dictatorship as the only good form of government. Even Lukashenko holds rigged elections to pretend otherwise. > [@Commissar](#): > > “Gulag” is a derogatory term mostly used by the West (we would call it a “colony,” “camp,” or a “zone”). Nyet, comrade. Someone needs to practice their Russian. Gulag, or more properly GUlag, is a Russian acronym. _ **G** lavnoye **u** pravlyeniye ispravityel’no-trudovih **lag** yeryey i koloniy_ is the name of the Soviet agency that administered those happy fun camps. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/240 "2010-11-08T20:48:46Z")
Oh SNAP!!! > [@Commissar](#): > > “Gulag” is a derogatory term mostly used by the West (we would call it a “colony,” “camp,” or a “zone”). Anyway, you’re asking about the necessity of maximum-security prisons, right? I would say they’re pretty damn necessary, and I would also say that your people seem to agree. San Quentin was still there last time I saw it… Unless you would rather we simply shot all our convicts, prisons are somewhat a modern necessity. Let me know when you come up with a better system, though. I knew someone who spent time in a gulag. If you think it was the equivalent to San Quentin, you’re even dumber than I thought. (I think I’ve mentioned before, he was accused of being an American spy and taken there, without any evidence) > [@](#): > > As for criticism of the state… I see nothing wrong with it. Free speech is more or less harmless, so I would grant it as a freebie. Then why the hell was it forbidden back in the good ol’ USSR? [sub]Yeah, the guy may be a troll, but who gives a shit, this is fun[/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559.md?page=13)