# I Pit the Empire **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559 "2010-11-05T08:14:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/361 "2010-11-12T03:11:03Z")
So, apparently the perfect socialism is one in which Capitalism is running rampant, destroying the environment and monopolizing the proletariat, but the central government is strong in theory but corrupt in execution? Because that’s China. Do a search for the threads of **even sven** who spent time there teaching, or our own **China Guy** , who has also lived there. They are far more familiar with China then you, and in **even sven’s** case, she’s practically a socialist as it is, so you have very little political beef with her. Also, since hindsight works for you, slavery, the native american “genocide” and issues of that nature, in hindsight, were bad ideas. We have expended a great deal of money and other resources trying to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/362 "2010-11-12T03:57:31Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I could’ve sworn I’ve addressed this on every single page of this thread. There’s your problem right there. You’re not up on even incredibly recent history, let alone history from a decade or more ago. You answered nothing. All you did was blather. > [@](#): > > Oh, well, let me summarize one last time: We can only hope. > [@](#): > > The Soviet government made the judgment call that the Wall was a cheap and effective way of countering Western propaganda directed at the socialist Germans from the capitalist bastion of West Berlin. I’m still curious how the intentional decision made by the East German government, not the Soviet Union government, to actually murder its own citizens for trying to cross into West Berlin was necessary. You have failed to explain that. All you have done is assert that the decision was necessary. As to a cheap solution, one would think that education would be a cheaper solution than killing a human being. > [@](#): > > Necessary in hindsight? Maybe not. Here’s another problem for you. The Soviets and the East German government erected the Berlin Wall without benefit of hindsight. You, with benefit of hindsight, have already asserted that the Berlin was necessary. > [@](#): > > The low number of people killed crossing the Wall is statistically insignificant. Except, as noted upthread, to those poor souls who were murdered. And yet the questions still remain for you, someone with the benefit of hindsight on this issue: Why was the Berlin Wall necessary? Why was it necessary to murder those crossing the Berlin Wall? > [@](#): > > You kill more people in Iraq and Afghanistan on a weekly basis. Actually, I’m nowhere near Iraq or Afghanistan. If you’re asserting that I’m guilty simply by association as a citizen of the United States of America, then you share that guilt also. Another fact you’re conveniently ignoring is that the US Armed Forces are trying and punishing those members who are illegally killing civilians in the two countries you mention. > [@](#): > > Somehow, I haven’t seen much hand-wringing from you on this topic. I strongly suspect that’s because you limit your diet of “news” to your favorite propaganda sites. Expand your horizons a bit and you’ll easily find more than a little hand-wringing on those two conflicts. But I forgot: you consider it acceptable, nay, necessary to murder someone who “falls prey to propaganda from the West.” > [@](#): > > “Far more communist?” According to whom? According to anybody with intelligence. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a hard-line Stalinist Communist state. You can’t get a more communist state than that one. All the other communist countries have either passed, as the Union of Soviet Socialists Republics has, or have adopted quite a bit of capitalism, as both the People’s Republic of China and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam have. > [@](#): > > As you may have noticed, our personal ideals are somewhat far apart on these issues. I most certainly have noticed that my personal appraisal of this issue is based on fact. Yours, on the other hand, is based on what you wish were true. Perhaps if you weren’t so afraid of your fellow travelers killing you, as was the case with the Berlin Wall mentioned above, you would actually glean some real knowledge instead of catchphrases from a failed political ideology. > [@](#): > > I do not consider North Korea to be a very good example of a viable socialist nation. Who said anything about viable? As it is, though, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is still a socialist state, whereas the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics no longer exists. > [@](#): > > China, on the other hand, is as close to socialist perfection as we have been able to come at this point (though, of course, there is always plenty of room for improvement). And the improvement chosen by the leaders of the Communist Party of China have selected capitalism as the means of change in their country. Kind of odd, isn’t it, that you tout such an action as the perfection of communism? Each posting of yours demonstrates your ignorance of what you espouse. I have it on reliable authority that this site exists to fight ignorance. If you wish to fight that, I strongly suggest you expand your horizons (after all, neither the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics nor the German Democratic Republic exists today, so you really need no longer fear being murdered for checking out some of that "Western propaganda) and read a bit more than whatever old books on socialism you’ve dredged up. It’ll do you some good, in my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/363 "2010-11-12T05:45:16Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > “Far more communist?” According to whom? As you may have noticed, our personal ideals are somewhat far apart on these issues. I do not consider North Korea to be a very good example of a viable socialist nation. China, on the other hand, is as close to socialist perfection as we have been able to come at this point (though, of course, there is always plenty of room for improvement). Let me ask once more: **HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY BEEN TO CHINA?** It’s a simple yes or no question. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/364 "2010-11-12T06:20:23Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Let me ask once more: > > **HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY BEEN TO CHINA?** > > It’s a simple yes or no question. Me! Me! Choose me, Mr. Kotter! Yes, I, Monty, have been to China. And this was back in the 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/365 "2010-11-12T08:03:53Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Me! Me! Choose me, Mr. Kotter! Yes, I, Monty, have been to China. And this was back in the 1980s. Maybe you can tell Commissar what it was like. I have a feeling he’s never been here in his life. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/366 "2010-11-12T08:08:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m still curious how the intentional decision made by the East German government, not the Soviet Union government, to actually murder its own citizens for trying to cross into West Berlin was necessary. You have failed to explain that. All you have done is assert that the decision was necessary. > > * * * > > Here’s another problem for you. The Soviets and the East German government erected the Berlin Wall without benefit of hindsight. You, with benefit of hindsight, have already asserted that the Berlin was necessary. Either you’re not reading what I’m writing, or I’m somehow failing to get my point across. I am NOT asserting that the Wall was necessary. Quoting myself: "The Soviet government made the judgment call that the Wall was a cheap and effective way of countering Western propaganda directed at the socialist Germans from the capitalist bastion of West Berlin. Necessary in hindsight? Maybe not." In other words, we know what the decision was, and we know that it did not work as well as planned. Thus, the construction of the Wall may not have been necessary. I think that what you want is a more forceful statement; you want me to condemn the Wall and the decision to build it. I will not do that. The Wall was a good idea at the time, and it was a rational decision to make. Rational people make mistakes - I will not turn on them simply for being human. Ideally, I would have preferred a wall-less Berlin. I would have also preferred an entirely socialist Berlin, so that the Wall would have been superfluous in the first place. > [@](#): > > Actually, I’m nowhere near Iraq or Afghanistan. If you’re asserting that I’m guilty simply by association as a citizen of the United States of America, then you share that guilt also. Wait a minute… You’re an Imperial that supports the Empire, but you’re not responsible for what the Empire does in Afghanistan because you’re not the one actually doing it… Got it. Why, then, are you haranguing me about the Berlin Wall? I did not build it, I did not guard it, and I certainly didn’t kill anyone climbing it. > [@](#): > > Another fact you’re conveniently ignoring is that the US Armed Forces are trying and punishing those members who are illegally killing civilians in the two countries you mention. Really, now? That’s great news. How many thousands of perpetrators have you punished at this point? You must have several super-max prisons chock-full of American war criminals by now, given the sheer number of war crimes committed. And all this time, I was under the impression that you were protecting the murderers while punishing a couple low-level operatives for publicity value. > [@](#): > > According to anybody with intelligence. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a hard-line Stalinist Communist state. You can’t get a more communist state than that one. You’re making too many assumptions; your argument depends entirely on identifying Stalinism with “true” communism, whatever that is. I disagree. Stalinism is a strain of socialism, but it is a dead-end strain that has no place in our glorious future. Stalin was mistaken, as is the North Korean leadership. It is very presumptuous and illogical of you to tell a socialist which nations he must accept as socialist ideals. > [@](#): > > And the improvement chosen by the leaders of the Communist Party of China have selected capitalism as the means of change in their country. Kind of odd, isn’t it, that you tout such an action as the perfection of communism? The world is not as black and white as you would apparently like to believe, my friend. You claim that the People’s Republic is embracing capitalism by allowing private enterprise. Very well. By that same logic, your beloved Empire is now socialist. Why? Because you have embraced socialist ideas: social security, maximum working hours, minimum wage, nationalized financial systems, you name it. You now have my permission to proudly fly the hammer and sickle over the White House. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Each posting of yours demonstrates your ignorance of what you espouse. I have it on reliable authority that this site exists to fight ignorance. If you wish to fight that, I strongly suggest you expand your horizons (after all, neither the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics nor the German Democratic Republic exists today, so you really need no longer fear being murdered for checking out some of that "Western propaganda) and read a bit more than whatever old books on socialism you’ve dredged up. It’ll do you some good, in my humble opinion. > > * * * > > I strongly suspect that’s because you limit your diet of “news” to your favorite propaganda sites. As usual, you presume too much. Notice that, no matter how much I disagree with you, I do not lash out at you by calling you ignorant, stupid, uneducated, or whatnot. I treat you in a civil manner, and I would ask that you do likewise. In my experience, ad hominem attacks do more to diminish the position of the perpetrator than that of the target. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/367 "2010-11-12T08:17:50Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Let me ask once more: > > **HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY BEEN TO CHINA?** > > It’s a simple yes or no question. I have answered this question before, and the answer has yet to change. No, I have not yet been to the glorious People’s Republic, may the non-existent angels sing its praises in perpetuity. To preempt your inevitable banal “Aha!” moment: I have also never been saved from a fire, nor have I saved anyone from a fire. I still think that firefighters are pretty damn useful to have around. Do you understand? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/368 "2010-11-12T08:40:00Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > So, apparently the perfect socialism is one in which Capitalism is running rampant, destroying the environment and monopolizing the proletariat, but the central government is strong in theory but corrupt in execution? Actually, no. The “as perfect as possible” socialist nation is one in which the state dominates the economy, yet allows private individuals to fill in the blanks with their laudable entrepreneurial spirit. It is a nation in which human nature is understood, and no games with democracy are allowed to occur. It is an authoritarian state that gets things done, yet never forgets that it exists for no other reason than to improve the lives of its citizens. It is a nation that is great, yet never stops striving for even greater greatness. It is a nation confident in its might, a nation that sees no reason to flaunt its power by oppressing foreigners halfway around the globe. It is a nation in which a benevolent handful of wise masters guide the proletariats down a path of patriotism, prosperity, and enlightenment. It is a nation that makes mistakes, yet seeks to rectify them rather than to embrace them. This nation exists. It is the glorious People’s Republic of China. > [@](#): > > Because that’s China. Do a search for the threads of **even sven** who spent time there teaching, or our own **China Guy** , who has also lived there. > > They are far more familiar with China then you, and in **even sven’s** case, she’s practically a socialist as it is, so you have very little political beef with her. Let me ask you this, my friend… You know how much I hate the Empire, and you know that I have resided in the Empire for some years. Now, let me assure you that a vocal minority of Bellorussians have either a neutral or a positive view of the US. The vast majority of them have never been to the US, though. Here is my question: when I go back to Belarus, are those pro-Imperials required by logic to listen to and absorb my condemnation of the Empire? After all, I’ve got them beat on actual first-hand experience. Is that the end of th inquiry? Or do you recognize the fact that all opinions are biased, and thus may never be simply accepted hook, line, and sinker? > [@](#): > > Also, since hindsight works for you, slavery, the native american “genocide” and issues of that nature, in hindsight, were bad ideas. We have expended a great deal of money and other resources trying to fix it. That would work, but there’s a minor problem here: the excuse of hindsight requires an actual demonstration of learning the lesson. The Wall was a bad idea, and we know it. As you may or may not realize, we are not currently building any walls in any foreign nations. Because we know that it is a bad idea. Lesson LEARNED! The Empire, on the other hand… Well, you stopped enslaving the blacks and slaughtering the “reds.” That’s nice, I suppose. On the other hand, you took all that racism and genocidal tendencies and simply shifted it into a perpetual crusade against Muslims. Er… lesson totally NOT LEARNED! Cretins. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/369 "2010-11-12T09:15:48Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I have answered this question before, and the answer has yet to change. No, I have not yet been to the glorious People’s Republic, may the non-existent angels sing its praises in perpetuity. So then why did you condescendingly ask someone above if they’d ever been to Belarus? Perhaps he doesn’t have an accurate picture of your country of birth because he’s never been there, but then you’ve never been to China and, thus, don’t have a leg to stand on, either. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/370 "2010-11-12T09:35:52Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > So then why did you condescendingly ask someone above if they’d ever been to Belarus? Perhaps he doesn’t have an accurate picture of your country of birth because he’s never been there, but then you’ve never been to China and, thus, don’t have a leg to stand on, either. The “someone above” attempted to lecture me concerning the freedom of press in Belarus. This is a political detail, and one that I am personally acquainted with. I go to Belarus regularly, I like wide access to news, and I have always been able to access said news in Belarus. My interlocutor, who has never been to Belarus, tried to claim that I was incorrect in my recollections. Please note that I make no “personal” allegations concerning China. I dearly love the country, and I also dearly love freedom of the press. I have NEVER claimed that the PRC does not censor the Internet. Assuming that it does, I will still support it, for I strongly believe that positive rights always trump negative ones. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/371 "2010-11-12T10:02:39Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > The low number of people killed crossing the Wall is statistically insignificant. You kill more people in Iraq and Afghanistan on a weekly basis. Somehow, I haven’t seen much hand-wringing from you on this topic. The Soviets were slaughtering Afghanis long before the US started killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/372 "2010-11-12T10:12:27Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > The Soviets were slaughtering Afghanis long before the US started killing them. Does this excuse your genocidal rage? The rest of us have learned our lesson. Lesson: Empire = bad idea. Have you learned anything approaching this? Did Korea and Vietnam teach you anything? ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/373 "2010-11-12T10:49:05Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > The “someone above” attempted to lecture me concerning the freedom of press in Belarus. This is a political detail, and one that I am personally acquainted with. I go to Belarus regularly, I like wide access to news, and I have always been able to access said news in Belarus. My interlocutor, who has never been to Belarus, tried to claim that I was incorrect in my recollections. The point is that it’s a stupid idea for you to pull rank with the “have _you_ ever been to XXX country?” card when you yourself haven’t even set foot in the other place you keep gassing off about. Maybe you should change your tactics, huh? Also might be a good idea not to say that someone (what was it?) “live[s] on a pile of corpses and drink[s] the blood of innocent people” without knowing where exactly they live. FWIW, I’m probably the most consistently pro-China poster on this board, not to mention a sincere lover of the PRC, my adopted country and home, and I still think you’re a tool. Keep on the road you’re currently on and you’ll have less friends around here than I do! ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/374 "2010-11-12T10:55:48Z")
_Part_ of it is idiotic. An unfortunately large part. Many of us are trying to fight the idiocy and, believe me, we’re less happy about it than you are. Although we’d prefer not to be smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/375 "2010-11-12T11:40:28Z")
I’ve been to China. Summer before last. I hired a private tour guide for a day - he was around 50, loved China, lived in and around Beijing his whole life. I asked him, simply, “so is China more capitalist or communist?” He responded, without the slightest pause, “Oh, capitalist, definitely.” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/376 "2010-11-12T12:52:22Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Does this excuse your genocidal rage? The rest of us have learned our lesson. What lesson pray tell did the glorious workers paradise learn from Afghanistan? They only left Afghanistan in 1989 because their own country was falling apart, and dissolved to the scrap heap of history two years later. Rather late in a country’s life for growing pains, no comrade? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/377 "2010-11-12T12:59:21Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Does this excuse your genocidal rage? The rest of us have learned our lesson. > > Lesson: Empire = bad idea. > > Have you learned anything approaching this? Did Korea and Vietnam teach you anything? The rest of the world is supposed to have learned from earlier wars but you can’t learn from the failure of communist regimes? Funny that. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/378 "2010-11-12T14:12:01Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > The rest of the world is supposed to have learned from earlier wars but you can’t learn from the failure of communist regimes? Funny that. No, no. You just have to understand that everything America has done wrong is escalating proof of our arrogant imperial disregard for all that is good and decent in the world, while everything that communist countries have done wrong is just growing pains as they have imperfectly striven to achieve socialist paradise for the fine workers of the world. There’s a huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/379 "2010-11-12T15:43:43Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > The “someone above” attempted to lecture me concerning the freedom of press in Belarus. This is a political detail, and one that I am personally acquainted with. I go to Belarus regularly, I like wide access to news, and I have always been able to access said news in Belarus. My interlocutor, who has never been to Belarus, tried to claim that I was incorrect in my recollections. _sigh_ Just because you keep saying this doesn’t make it true. I’ll note that you _still_ haven’t offered any evidence to counter my claim that Belarus suppresses information to its citizens. But since you didn’t like the BBC cite, here’s a few more for you. > [@UN Refugee Agency](#): > > Belarus’s level of press freedom remained extremely restricted in 2009. … By April, however, [Lukashenka] made it clear that his country had “had enough” political liberalization, and the government continued suppressing the few remaining independent media outlets. > **[Freedom of the Press 2010 - Belarus | Refworld](https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/freehou/2010/en/76023)** > [@Belarus Digest](#): > > Pressure on journalists has recently increased in Belarus. Two criminal cases have been initiated against independent news website [charter97.org](http://charter97.org). According to [charter97.org](http://charter97.org), their office was searched and computers were seized and journalist Natallya Radzina was beaten during the search. [http://belarusdigest.com/2010/05/22/press-freedom-act-government-in-belarus-imprisoned-journalists/](http://belarusdigest.com/2010/05/22/press-freedom-act-government-in-belarus-imprisoned-journalists/) > [@Atlantic Council](#): > > Last week, the country’s highest court upheld the Justice Ministry’s January 13 warning to Belarus’ largest independent journalistic organization, the Belarusian Association of Journalists (BAJ). According to the ruling, within the next few weeks the BAJ will be required to recall all press passes and cease all legal assistance it provides to its members. [http://www.acus.org/new\_atlanticist/belarus-press-crackdown-puts-westernization-hold](http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/belarus-press-crackdown-puts-westernization-hold) > [@Press Reference](#): > > Government Decree no. 144, adopted on February 26, 1996, stipulated that purchase of printing equipment could be carried out only by the permission of the Government Committee on the Press (now Ministry of Information). Without this permit no media could operate in the republic. [http://www.pressreference.com/A-Be/Belarus.html](http://www.pressreference.com/A-Be/Belarus.html) Of course this is all just a tangent from my original point, the also unaddressed statement that Belarus is a shithole when it comes to how it treats its own citizens. I’m sure you’ll point out that until I visit the place I can’t make that judgement, but fortunately for me I don’t have to. The UN Commision on Human Rights _did_, and here’s what they thought of the place: > [@](#): > > The present situation in the Republic of Belarus is characterized by the systematic violation of civil and political rights and the deprivation of Belarusian citizens of their right to effectively take part in the conduct of public affairs, and by extreme weakness of human rights protection mechanisms. And > [@](#): > > Therefore if one year ago President Lukashenka’s regime appeared as an authoritarian regime but not yet a dictatorship, it is the general conclusion of the Special Rapporteur that Belarus is now rapidly turning into a real dictatorship, with clear totalitarian inclinations [http://russianlaw.org/Lukashenka/UN-Rapporteur-reports.pdf](http://russianlaw.org/Lukashenka/UN-Rapporteur-reports.pdf) (Warning: PDF) I’m sure you’ll forgive me if decline to drop by. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559/380 "2010-11-12T16:01:54Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > No, no. You just have to understand that everything America has done wrong is escalating proof of our arrogant imperial disregard for all that is good and decent in the world, while everything that communist countries have done wrong is just growing pains as they have imperfectly striven to achieve socialist paradise for the fine workers of the world. There’s a huge difference. I bow to your superior knowledge of governmental economic policies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-empire/559559.md?page=20)