# I pit the Europeans I work with **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599 "2009-11-06T17:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/21 "2009-11-06T20:44:04Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > No, probably most are not. However, a certain kind of very aggressive, “king-of-the-world” personality gets attracted to the MBA degree. Probably because it’s likely the single fastest way to wealth in this country; nothing is as likely to start you off as close to the boardroom as an MBA. Many execs start their careers as MBA’s, since it means you’re at least not a _total_ dimwit (whereas a BA from most institutions may as well be scratch paper these days), while getting a PhD is more academically-oriented and not really vital for business. > > So basically, if you’re smart but arrogant and ambitious, it’s a good start in life. And, unfortunately, such people often show good results when they get started in business, at least in the short term. But then the problems tend to build over time. They get more arrogant and more high-handed, and tend to jump jobs to leave the accumulated morale and social problems they started behind them. It also helps them escape the accumulating numbers of people who don’t want to deal with them. Eventually, of course, they hit a limit and nobody likes them anymore, after which their careers hit a brick wall. Maybe, but there are plenty of tools that don’t have MBAs either, but I see your point. It certainly magnifies the visibility of their tool-ness because it does make it easier to hit the higher profile positions. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/22 "2009-11-06T20:47:52Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > …This is Mergers and Acquisitions… > > …am I supposed to believe that this particular company specifically looked for a bunch of arrogant pricks and those are the only ones they hired?.. I think the proper analogy would be: This is a convent. Am I supposed to believe this particular convent specificlaly looked for a bunch of spiritual people devoted to a lifetime in the service of god and those were the only ones they hired? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/23 "2009-11-06T21:21:24Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > No, probably most are not. However, a certain kind of very aggressive, “king-of-the-world” personality gets attracted to the MBA degree. Probably because it’s likely the single fastest way to wealth in this country; nothing is as likely to start you off as close to the boardroom as an MBA. Many execs start their careers as MBA’s, since it means you’re at least not a _total_ dimwit (whereas a BA from most institutions may as well be scratch paper these days), while getting a PhD is more academically-oriented and not really vital for business. > > So basically, if you’re smart but arrogant and ambitious, it’s a good start in life. And, unfortunately, such people often show good results when they get started in business, at least in the short term. But then the problems tend to build over time. They get more arrogant and more high-handed, and tend to jump jobs to leave the accumulated morale and social problems they started behind them. It also helps them escape the accumulating numbers of people who don’t want to deal with them. Eventually, of course, they hit a limit and nobody likes them anymore, after which their careers hit a brick wall. Okaaay…well most of this is incorrect. MBAs do not graduate “close to the boardroom”. They graduate and typically become Associates in investment banks, management consulting firms, hedge funds, private equity or venture capital firms or possibly as Managers or Directors in “industry” companies, depending on their experience before they went to B-school. Many start their own businesses. If MBAs seem arrogant or “douchey” it is because, similar to a JD, it is a “no bullshit” degree. IOW, MBAs tend to be a self-selecting group of ambitious people who are there to learn to make money, not fuck around. More often than not, the value of an MBA is realized about 5-10 years after you graduate. You don’t get hired as the CEO, but the experience you gain in business school may help you get there faster. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/24 "2009-11-06T21:21:29Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > I think the proper analogy would be: > > This is a convent. > > Am I supposed to believe this particular convent specificlaly looked for a bunch of spiritual people devoted to a lifetime in the service of god and those were the only ones they hired? 🙂 Maybe I just need a new career. So far, they are douches because they are Belgians/French, they are douches because they are MBA’s, and they’re douches because its M&A! Truly, its not just M&A, that’s my department, IT and Accounting both have similar issues. (and **suranyi** mentioned it as well, so that makes it engineering too. I guess its about as easy to answer as “why are americans all assholes”. Since we aren’t, and they probably aren’t all arrogant jerks, I’m just whining about my job, even though I should be grateful for having it. Damn the SDMB for opening my eyes to rationality and understanding! ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/25 "2009-11-06T23:20:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Okaaay…well most of this is incorrect. > > > [@smiling bandit](#): > > > > No, probably most are not. However, a certain kind of very aggressive, “king-of-the-world” personality gets attracted to the MBA degree. Probably because it’s likely the single fastest way to wealth in this country; nothing is as likely to start you off as close to the boardroom as an MBA. Many execs start their careers as MBA’s, since it means you’re at least not a total dimwit (whereas a BA from most institutions may as well be scratch paper these days), while getting a PhD is more academically-oriented and not really vital for business. > > > > So basically, if you’re smart but arrogant and ambitious, it’s a good start in life. And, unfortunately, such people often show good results when they get started in business, at least in the short term. But then the problems tend to build over time. They get more arrogant and more high-handed, and tend to jump jobs to leave the accumulated morale and social problems they started behind them. It also helps them escape the accumulating numbers of people who don’t want to deal with them. Eventually, of course, they hit a limit and nobody likes them anymore, after which their careers hit a brick wall. > > MBAs do not graduate “close to the boardroom”. They graduate and typically become Associates in investment banks, management consulting firms, hedge funds, private equity or venture capital firms or possibly as Managers or Directors in “industry” companies, depending on their experience before they went to B-school. Many start their own businesses. If MBAs seem arrogant or “douchey” it is because, similar to a JD, it is a “no bullshit” degree. IOW, MBAs tend to be a self-selecting group of ambitious people who are there to learn to make money, not fuck around. > > More often than not, the value of an MBA is realized about 5-10 years after you graduate. You don’t get hired as the CEO, but the experience you gain in business school may help you get there faster. This. Plus very few MBAs “start” their careers with that MBA. Most top schools are hesitant to even look at you until you’ve got some good experience under your belt. One thing that may be in play for the OP is that the home office can often be a bit douchy to other locations. Our non US affiliates frequently tell us we’re being too US-centric and treating them like second class associates. We do actually _read_ their emails though, so that we do have that going for us! ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/26 "2009-11-07T02:11:12Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > Its not specific language, its in the concepts and the phrasing. You know this rant could be transformed into a GD discussion. As I work in a firm that includes (in an probably long-term unworkable) North America, UK, and EU management triumvirate, I think I see what is going on. What’s interesting in this connection, relative to a GD, is the assumption a single business language means a single business culture / approach (an assumption I find among Americans quite frequently…). Anyway, it strikes me from my business experience that the Continentals (i.e. non UK side) of your management people are (i) rather more used to worked in a English 2nd lang. enviro -i.e. German, Beglians, Dutch, French, etc managers- operating in English without native language sensibilities, (ii) largely used to a more hierarchal business culture which is typical… well in most the world ex USA … and so interact unconsciously based on that baseline culture (although certainly there are variations, the Dutch are rather more like UK in habits, Germans and French in my opinion despite their differences are rather more hierarchy based), etc. The problems Americans face once they are managed by an outside management culture is that, unlike Euro zone corporations of any size, Americans don’t have much direct, operational, experience in dealing with different management cultures. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/27 "2009-11-07T02:14:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Okaaay…well most of this is incorrect. > > MBAs do not graduate “close to the boardroom”. They graduate and typically become Associates in investment banks, management consulting firms, hedge funds, private equity or venture capital firms or possibly as Managers or Directors in “industry” companies, depending on their experience before they went to B-school. Many start their own businesses. This is no contradicts what I said, and the fact that you quote me as saying they ""graduate “close to the boardroom” “” shows that you, at best, skimmed over what I posted, since I did not, in fact, say that at all. Rather, I said it was the closest start you could get. What you posted thereafter is a confirmation of what I said. > [@](#): > > If MBAs seem arrogant or “douchey” it is because, similar to a JD, it is a “no bullshit” degree. IOW, MBAs tend to be a self-selecting group of ambitious people who are there to learn to make money, not fuck around. > > More often than not, the value of an MBA is realized about 5-10 years after you graduate. You don’t get hired as the CEO, but the experience you gain in business school may help you get there faster. This tends to confirm, rather than deny, what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/28 "2009-11-07T02:46:05Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > We don’t respond to those messages because the only proper response is “ **no shit sherlock** ” and that’s not really business appropriate. I got a macro for that. Its the first one I ever wrote. Like a copy ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/29 "2009-11-07T02:59:44Z")
It’s just that they’re more _stoic_. Germans don’t do comedy. Germans do bier. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/30 "2009-11-07T03:41:17Z")
Ugh… ze Germans. I’m not sure where this idea of German efficiency came from, but I’ve certainly never seen any evidence of it. And don’t even get me started on Chinese factories using German hardware and American chemicals… the technical people spend all their time arguing through translators while the bigwigs try to subtly stab each other in the back. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/31 "2009-11-07T04:23:12Z")
I loved the Japanese pre-managers brought in to run our company after its recent (1988) acquisition. The first few months had them with their ties thrown over their shoulders and a “Mushi-mushi” halfway through the first ring of their phones. After a few months they’d gone native and knew that Miller Time did not only refer to the company’s name. By the end of their 6-month tours of duty they were completely useless back in the home islands. I like to think we precipitated the collapse of the Japanese economy in the late 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/32 "2009-11-07T07:52:32Z")
Actually, if you want to say rude things about a specific european nationality without insulting europeans in general, taking potshots at the french is just about as safe as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/33 "2009-11-07T11:18:55Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > Ugh… ze Germans. I’m not sure where this idea of German efficiency came from, but I’ve certainly never seen any evidence of it. That’s because it’s not there to make things easier or save money or time. It’s a cultural imperative - an end in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/34 "2009-11-07T12:43:31Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > Some of the things that drive all of us apeshit are when we specifically write in an email “Here is the current situation and X is the next step”. **without fail** their response will be along the lines of “have you considered X?” or “we need to get X information”, or “we can’t make a decision until you do X”, etc. You know, I have a professor from Germany who does _exactly_ this. It drives me batty. Probably just a coincidence that he’s from Europe too. I’m sure there are plenty of USA-icans who do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/35 "2009-11-07T12:44:26Z")
Yes, Europeans are turds. Americans are far more whimsical. Let’s stereo type. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/36 "2009-11-07T12:46:44Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > Ugh… ze Germans. I’m not sure where this idea of German efficiency came from, but I’ve certainly never seen any evidence of it. I’ve seen some very impressive German engineering, mostly in breweries and various paper mills. The mills I’ve seen built by Germans are very efficient, very little wasted energy are material. Most of the German engineers had very good hands-on knowledge too. Their technical documentation leaves a lot to be desired though. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/37 "2009-11-07T15:09:49Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > Its kind of like hiring an American to do business in Japan. Do you insist that they follow American culture or Japanese culture. Japanese of course, you follow the culture of the country you are doing business in. You would quickly go broke betting on that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/38 "2009-11-07T18:37:47Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Yes, Europeans are turds. Americans are far more whimsical. Let’s stereo type. I think the word you are looking for is stereotype. I think the word you are looking for is stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/39 "2009-11-07T18:52:32Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You know, I have a professor from Germany who does _exactly_ this. It drives me batty. > > Probably just a coincidence that he’s from Europe too. I’m sure there are plenty of USA-icans who do the same thing. I don’t know. Have you considered that it might be just a coincidence, and there’s plenty of USA-icans who do the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599/40 "2009-11-09T14:08:39Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > exactly. you do business according to the country you are in, not the country you are from. I guess that’s my biggest issue. I absolutely agree with that, also with your bosses being a bunch of pricks. Sadly, their attitude is extremely common. I’ve been trained on anti-discriminatory practices using anti-discrimination material written in reference to US “protected groups” (a concept which doesn’t exist in European countries) several times: Central was American and the notion of “you’re telling people to do things which are illegal where they live” just didn’t go through. I’ve also seen firing processes where clearly the criteria had been marked by the Americans, it made sense in an American business setting but not in a Spanish or Italian one. I’ve mediated arguments between Scots and Spaniards, where the biggest problem was that each part assumed that the laws of the other country were identical to those of his own (the two countries don’t even have the same kind of legal system). Arrogance knows no borders, sadly. If it did, we could get rid of it by moving. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-europeans-i-work-with/516599.md?page=3)