# I pit the "F.Y.I. Obama" email and provide a rebuttal - Please send it around **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2008, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-f-y-i-obama-email-and-provide-a-rebuttal-please-send-it-around/432712 "2008-01-08T08:41:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-f-y-i-obama-email-and-provide-a-rebuttal-please-send-it-around/432712/101 "2008-01-14T07:45:25Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] I’m sorry, ambushed, but you’ve still got facts wrong. Barack Obama was _not_ always a Christian. His father was an atheist who had been raised as a Moslem. His stepfather was a nominal Moslem who hardly ever went to mosque. His mother had been raised in no religious tradition and her parents were simply nonreligious. His mother was actually interested in religion and sometimes brought Obama to religious ceremonies of many different groups, but she never became an adherent of any religion. Obama spent the first six years of his life in Hawaii, then four years in Indonesia, then the rest of his childhood in Hawaii again. The most important people in his childhood were his mother and her parents, and they didn’t raise him in any religious tradition. Neither his father nor his stepfather had any real effect on his religious beliefs. In Indonesia he mostly attended a Catholic school and in Hawaii he attended a private nonsectarian school, but they didn’t have much effect on his religious beliefs either. It wasn’t until Obama was in his twenties when he was working in Chicago on voting rights campaigns that he had any significant contact with Christian churches. The churches he worked with, which were in general mostly black, impressed him with their faith. It was at that point that he became a Christian and was baptised into the Church of Christ. The church he attends is mostly but not entirely black. This is hardly surprising since the fact is that nearly all Christian churches in the U.S. are nearly all either white or black at the individual congregational level. It’s too bad that this is true, but it’s not Obama’s fault. In any case, unlike all the other candidates in this presidential race, Obama made a choice as an adult to become a Christian. He wasn’t brought up in a Christian church like the other candidates. [/QUOTE] Don’t confuse the kid with facts. He’s departed the thread, obviously navigating by the seat of his arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-f-y-i-obama-email-and-provide-a-rebuttal-please-send-it-around/432712/102 "2008-01-14T15:00:18Z")
I’m going to make a few comments on the OP, some of which are opinion based, but maybe others will find them helpful. > [@](#): > > Obama sounds anti American to me. > > –\> He is NOTHING of the kind. He is as loyal and patriotic an American as they come! The problem here is that you have two opinions. There really are people in the US who believe only Christian republicans are true, loyal citizens. There are other people who, of course believe differently. This is a “He is not!” “He is too!” argument which really convinces no one to change their mind. > [@](#): > > On the church’s web site in their magazine there is an article glorifying Louis Farrakan [color=navy][sic - the correct spelling is: Farrakhan] which enforces my concern about Obama’s Muslim ties.[/color] > > –\> Let me clarify a few things on that point: > > First, the article is simply in some church-sponsored magazine, which Obama has absolutely no ties with and which Obama has no say or control over. He can’t help it that some unnamed person – probably not even directly involving the pastor of that church – chose to write an article which is merely an interview with Farrakhan, **whom I believe any sane, rational, sober person should despise.** OK, you had me up until this point - I’d drop the part in bold. The problem with the first e-mail is that it tells people how to think. Now you are telling people how to think. “Merely an interview with Farrakhan” keeps you out of the morass of opinion. Whether that last little bit is true or not, it does make you sound strident. Sounding strident will work against your goal, which is to discredit the bad e-mail. > [@](#): > > Second, while it is true that the title of that article is: “The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan”, the word “honorable” in that context is simply an honorific. It is precisely the same thing as when other ministers are referred to as “The Right Honorable Minister John Smith”. **It in no way implies that the person is actually honorable, since** it is just a common title for ministers. Again, deleted the part in bold. Stick to FACTS. “Honorable” is a common title of ministers, period. If you’re countering misinformation you must stick as much as possible to facts and not inject opinions (even correct ones) > [@](#): > > Third, the article itself – which is very short (just 718 words) – is quite innocent and harmless, and in no way praises Islam or “black power” or anything like that at all. While it does show polite respect for [color=navy]Farrakhan, \*\*something you or I would likely never do, \*\*it is simply being courteous. Again, - _drop the anti-Farrakhan stuff_. This is about _Obama_, not Farrakhan. [quote] Finally, Obama, the church, the magazine, and everything else about it is completely and totally Christian. Not being a Christian myself I don’t know how to judge if something is “completely and totally Christian”. Frankly, I’m not sure it matters. You’re trying to prove allegations in the first e-mail as false, so you need only demonstrate that Obama is not Muslim, you don’t have to also prove that he is Christian. > [@](#): > > Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their website, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa. > > –\> That last comment, while technically accurate, has been unkindly and irrationally exploited by the author of those words merely to inflame hatred, racism, and fear. My first thought with this, and with reading about Obama’s church, was that is was no different than, say, an Irish-American church (of which there are many in Chicago) having and interest in and a commitment to ending the “Troubles” in Northern Ireland. Or a Polish or Greek congregation holding on to traditions from those cultures, including saying mass in languages other than English. Many churches adopt a cause which they they support through various sorts of works and charities. Given that Obama’s father is a Nigerian immigrant I see nothing puzzling about this connection, nor is it any more sinister than any other child of immigrants maintaining interest and ties to his/her parent’s country. I think an approach emphasizing the similarity to other “ethnic” churches is more productive than accusations of inflaming, hatred, racism, and fear. Counter with _examples_. This is no different than claims that JFK would have been taking orders from the Pope because he was Catholic rather than Protestant. In fact, it’s a good parallel. > [@](#): > > No where is AMERICA even mentioned. > > –\> So what? That comment is just so much ugly jingoism. I just scoured my local Catholic Church’s web site, and THEY never mention AMERICA either! Drop the “So what?”. Also, reverse the order of the next two sentences for what would consider a better effect: “I just scoured my local Catholic Church’s web site and THEY never mention AMERICA. The comment is just so much ugly jingoism” Also, point out that we are supposed to have SEPARATION of church and state in this country, that we are not supposed to have a religious test for office (if I recall, that’s unconstitutional), and that it is OBAMA running for office, and NOT his church! > [@](#): > > Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama’s church… B-L-A-C-K!!! > > –\> That’s just another blatant, racist lie. There is not even the slightest HINT that you have to be black to join! I would change that to "There is no requirement that you have to be black to join this church. How is it any different from a predominantly Polish congregation catering to Polish immigrants and their descendants? How is it different than a predominantly German congregation doing the same? Or an Irish congregation? > [@](#): > > Doesn’t look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing. > > –\> Sigh. That’s just another ugly, vicious, mud-slinging lie! Obama was NEVER a Muslim! He was ALWAYS a devout Christian! While it is true that Obama’s FATHER was raised as a Muslim, his FATHER had openly ended all his ties with Islam and openly became an agnostic by the time he married Obama’s mother (i.e., long before Barack Obama was born!) OK, enough with the “!” Again, it makes you sound strident. Please don’t do this when attempting to appeal to the rational side of readers. Also - I’m not sure how you prove someone is a DEVOUT Christian outside of someone who, say, joins a monastery. Instead, I would point out that while Obama’s father was raised Muslim you do not inherit religion the way you do skin and eye color. One of the principals of Christianity is that _anyone can become Christian_ - it doesn’t matter what your parents were, or how you were raised. Once you are baptized that settles the matter. So whatever religion Obama’s father was or wasn’t is IRRELEVANT. The only question is what _Obama’s_ beliefs are, and there is evidence (church attendance, acceptance by other church members) that right now he is Christian. > [@](#): > > As a young child, Barack Obama and his mother moved to Indonesia where her job was. During Barack’s earliest 4-5 school years, he mostly attended a Catholic elementary school. However, for various economic and practical reasons, Barack also attended another school at times during those 4-5 years. This was not a “Muslim school” or “madras”! It was simply the case that, since most people in Indonesia are Muslims, most of his classmates happened to be Muslims. After those 4-5 years were over, Barack moved back to the United States to live with his Christian grandmother and from there on out attended nothing other than public or Christian schools and churches. There is nothing more to the whole story! If you could document this more specifically it would make your arguments stronger. Are the names of these schools available anywhere? For example, if you can counter with “From 1970 to 1972 he attended school XXXX which was funded by YYYY” it provides facts that a reader could potentially confirm on his or her own. > [@](#): > > [color=#800000]Are you aware that Obama’s middle name is Mohammed? > > –\> \*\*That is yet another ugly, mean-spirited, xenophobic lie. \*\*His middle name is actually Hussein. While **stupid, ugly** racists and xenophobes will consider that just as bad, **that too is extremely stupid and unjust.** Barack Hussein Obama was simply named in honor of his father, whose name was also Barack Hussein Obama. There is nothing more to the whole story! Again, I’d drop the parts in bold, which are inflammatory, and reword it as follows: “His middle name is actually Hussein. While racists and xenophobes will consider that just as bad, it actually displays their ethnocentrism and ignorance. Names such as Hussein and Mohammad are very common in some parts of the world, as common as “Jim” and “Dave” in the US and there is nothing inherently sinister in them. Barack Hussein Obama was simply named in honor of his father, whose name was also Barack Hussein Obama. There is nothing more to the whole story!” > [@](#): > > [color=#800000]Strip away his nice looks, the big smile and smooth talk and what do you get? Certainly a racist, as plainly defined by the stated position of his church! > > –\> What a FILTHY, DESPICABLE LIE! He is not now, nor has he EVER been, a racist! The author of the ugly email to which I’m responding obviously IS a foul, ugly racist though! And as I calmly and factually reported earlier, there is nothing racist about his church, either! Please do not get into a shouting match with these people. Again, I’d use the parallel that JFK was not taking orders from the Pope, and there is no reason to believe Obama will take marching orders from his Church. Again, if Obama’s church is racist then so is every other church that proclaims interest in a part of the world other than the US. > [@](#): > > And possibly a covert worshiper of the Muslim faith, even today. > > –\> Nonsense! He was never a Muslim and never “worshiped” the Muslim faith in his entire life! I would counter with these two points: 1. Although Obama lived in places that were predominantly Muslim, and had Muslim relatives, there is no evidence than he ever believed or practiced as a Muslim 2. Even if he had been, at one point, a Muslim (and, again, there is NO evidence he ever was) that statement is in direct contradiction to the idea that one can _convert_ to Christianity. Christianity is NOT an inherited religion - each person must, individually, accept and embrace the religion. To say that because someone else was or might have been another face earlier in life flies into the face of 2,000 of doctrine AND contradicts the words of the New Testament (supply Bible quotes regarding conversaion being open to all, all being equal in God’s eyes, etc.) > [@](#): > > This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa! > > –\> What an astoundingly stupid, ignorant and evil thing to say! First, he does not desire to “rule over America”, he wants to be the duly elected President of the United States, who must pledge to honor, uphold, and protect the Constitution of the United States! His loyalty has ever and always been 110% to America and her great, noble ideals and principles! WOW, what an evil, racist ass the author of the email is! Again, you’re getting into a shouting match with an “evil, racist ass”. Please stick to just facts. Point out the opposition does NOT stick to just facts but, since facts are lacking, are appealing to emotion, and some pretty ugly emotion at that. > [@](#): > > It does not matter in the least if you support Obama’s Presidential hopes or not. All that matters is that our fellow citizens have the true facts about all the candidates. I really, really, really like this part. It is the essence of the issue. You might want to put it first as well as last. > [@](#): > > For more factual information on this issue, please point your browsers to these two pages at [Snopes.com](http://Snopes.com): > > [http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp](http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp) > > [http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp](http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp) If you can provide other sources with which to confirm these facts that would be great, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-f-y-i-obama-email-and-provide-a-rebuttal-please-send-it-around/432712.md?page=5)