# I pit the family of that kid who got shot. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 17, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300 "2006-01-17T02:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/1 "2006-01-17T02:20:45Z")
## I watched the parents of this kid on the news tonight, who, along with their lawyer (which implies the threat of legal action to me) stated that the father told police their son did not have a real gun. That’s what inspired this rant. Oh, your son had a fake gun? Tough shit. You expect a SWAT team to take the time to examine when someone aims it at them? I don’t care if they _had_ heard that it was fake. Until they personally checked it out there was no way to verify that. Furthermore, it was outwardly identical to a famous 9mm handgun that any police officer would be recognize on sight. I’m sorry your kid had a mental breakdown because his girlfriend broke up with him. That’s too goddamn bad. I’d love to see how he would handle an adult problem. My guess is that it would be much the same way - walk into his workplace with a gun and hope that the police killed him. Now some cop has to live with this on his conscience because your son had a weak grasp of reality. You think the cops are going to hold off on using deadly force because you claim you had no real guns in your house? He fucking aimed it at the officer. If this had been a week after Columbine, would anyone be giving 2 shits what the parents said about it? People would be asking why the cops hadn’t killed him faster, and why the parents hadn’t done something to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/2 "2006-01-17T02:28:00Z")
Any way you could provide a link or something? I looked on the front page of several news websites and see nothing about this, and given the info at hand I’ve been unable to goolge it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/3 "2006-01-17T02:31:45Z")
I think it was down south someplace. Like FLA maybe. But he has the essentials right from the NPR story I heard. I mean, sorry, but you point a realistic looking weapon at a person when you KNOW SWAT members are pointing guns at you and I think there’s little else to expect. It’s like that old military phrase I once heard: “If you point a weapon at a Marine you should EXPECT to die.” ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/4 "2006-01-17T02:39:55Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > It’s like that old military phrase I once heard: “If you point a weapon at a Marine you should EXPECT to die.” I always hear that type of death was natural causes. Point a gun at Marine/Police officer/SWAT/etc, naturally, they shoot you. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/5 "2006-01-17T02:57:43Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > I mean, sorry, but you point a realistic looking weapon at a person when you KNOW SWAT members are pointing guns at you and I think there’s little else to expect. Even worse, he was pointing it _at_ the SWAT guys. [http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/13/teen.shot/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/13/teen.shot/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/6 "2006-01-17T03:06:24Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > [CNN.com - Deputy shoots teen wielding pellet gun - Jan 13, 2006](http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/13/teen.shot/index.html) The gun in that photo looks JUST like any real large-caliber handgun. I’d have shot him, too. There’s just no other way this could have gone down, from what I can gather. Tragic, but inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/7 "2006-01-17T03:06:48Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > It’s like that old military phrase I once heard: “If you point a weapon at a Marine you should EXPECT to die.” Only… He wasn’t pointing a weapon at a marine. Or any other member of the armed forces. He pointed it at _police officers_, who, even if they got to wear the Gestapo-gear with “SWAT” in yellow letters on the back, are NOT the military and are NOT supposed to act like the military. If the police were told by multiple people that the kid did not have a real gun, I don’t think they should have used deadly force to subdue him. Would that have been risky? Yup. Could it have turned out to be a real gun? Sure. But it’s a risk they should have taken. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/8 "2006-01-17T03:20:47Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Yup. Could it have turned out to be a real gun? Sure. But it’s a risk they should have taken. A risk they should have taken when he was aiming the gun right at them? Justify? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/9 "2006-01-17T03:21:18Z")
No, it’s \*not \*a risk they should have taken. The kid is at fault. > [@](#): > > Eslinger said that the student, Christopher David Penley, painted the brightly colored tip of the pellet gun black to make it look like a real gun. I don’t want police officers dying because of one stupid kid. I’m sorry the kid died, but he brought it upon himself. > [@](#): > > Deputies tried to talk the teen into surrendering, but he refused to speak with them, Eslinger said. > > “I’m going to kill myself or I’m going to die somehow,” Eslinger quoted the boy as saying. “He refused to even comment. All he said was his first name. He did not drop the firearm.” > > The student eventually exited the bathroom and pointed the gun at his own head and throat. When he “raised the firearm in a tactical position and pointed it” at one of the SWAT team members, the officer “decided to use deadly force,” Eslinger said. And his parents are at fault, too. I’m thinking the kid needed help. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/10 "2006-01-17T03:27:30Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Only… He wasn’t pointing a weapon at a marine. Or any other member of the armed forces. He pointed it at _police officers_, who, even if they got to wear the Gestapo-gear with “SWAT” in yellow letters on the back, are NOT the military and are NOT supposed to act like the military. > > If the police were told by multiple people that the kid did not have a real gun, I don’t think they should have used deadly force to subdue him. Would that have been risky? Yup. Could it have turned out to be a real gun? Sure. But it’s a risk they should have taken. So, what if the multiple people been mistaken or the kid flat out lied to them and said it was fake when it was a real 9mm loaded with real bullets? How many shots should the kid have been able to get off before the use of deadly force would be acceptable in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![ethanwinfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/96bed5/32.png) [@ethanwinfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethanwinfield)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/11 "2006-01-17T03:28:44Z")
I’m so glad someone pitted this! I couldn’t believe the attorney thing. Just what, pray tell, do you need an attorney for now? It’s not likely your deceased son will be brought up on charges for all the crimes he committed. Oh wait, maybe the atttorney is to represent them in all of the suits that will be brought against them for their son’s actions. What gets me is the people second-guessing the cops. “Couldn’t they have aimed for a kneecap or a hand or some non-lethal part of the body?” Um…I’m pretty sure the he wasn’t aiming for the SWAT guy’s knee. Not that it would matter anyway. All of the early reports I heard stated that the kid was saying he wanted to kill himself or be killed. Suicide by cop, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![ryobserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@ryobserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryobserver)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/12 "2006-01-17T03:30:02Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Only… He wasn’t pointing a weapon at a marine. Or any other member of the armed forces. He pointed it at _police officers_, who, even if they got to wear the Gestapo-gear with “SWAT” in yellow letters on the back, are NOT the military and are NOT supposed to act like the military. > > If the police were told by multiple people that the kid did not have a real gun, I don’t think they should have used deadly force to subdue him. Would that have been risky? Yup. Could it have turned out to be a real gun? Sure. But it’s a risk they should have taken. But were the police “told by multiple people”? I thought they were told only by the kid’s dad that the gun was fake. And gee, is it so inconcievable a crazed kid’s dad might bullshit the cops about his kid’s harmlessness? And yes, cops are not military. That doesn’t mean they like getting shot. The military are more likely than police to shoot people who aren’t pointing guns at them (or aren’t yet), but anyone and everyone who carries a gun is likely to shoot someone pointing a gun at them. Or any reasonable facsimile of a gun. You don’t get a free shot before they’re allowed to return fire, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/13 "2006-01-17T03:32:09Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > A risk they should have taken when he was aiming the gun right at them? They had been told it wasn’t a real gun. By two independent witnesses. They new the victim was suicidal, and should have suspected he was merely going for a suicide-by-cop (it’s not uncommon). That’s sufficient reason to use non-lethal force, instead of sending in a SWAT team. I’d add the caveat that I can’t find where I read about the witnesses–if the police hadn’t been told by someone it wasn’t a real gun, I’d feel differently about this. > [@Anaamika](#): > > No, it’s not a risk they should have taken. The kid is at fault. Fault isn’t exclusive. The kid is responsible for his own murder, as are the police officers who shot him. > [@Casey1505](#): > > So, what if the multiple people been mistaken or the kid flat out lied to them and said it was fake when it was a real 9mm loaded with real bullets? How many shots should the kid have been able to get off before the use of deadly force would be acceptable in your eyes? One. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/14 "2006-01-17T03:37:03Z")
> [@ryobserver](#): > > But were the police “told by multiple people”? I don’t know. Still can’t find anything but the dad. If it was just the dad, I’d move the fault slider away from the cops and more towards the kid. But it still doesn’t sound like they handled it particularly well. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean they like getting shot. Never said they did. Just think they should be willing to risk getting shot instead of killing a 15-year old with a pellet gun. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/15 "2006-01-17T03:41:24Z")
This all took place in Seminole County, FL. just a couple dozen miles from here. I have met and talked to Sheriff Eslinger before and I suspect he and the Deputy involved are sick about this thing. It is sad and unfortunate but the fault lies where it lies; with the boy. There are some things in life you cannot do and survive. This is one of them. My heart goes out to the parents. I can’t imagine their loss. Earlier today a man decided to kill himself by jumping off an interstate overpass (Lake Mary/I-4) down into rush hour traffic. It worked all too well. He was a friend of some members of our family. Same rule applies. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/16 "2006-01-17T03:51:32Z")
Couldn’t they have shot him in the shoulder or something? Just asking. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/17 "2006-01-17T03:51:54Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > One. And even then, they’d have to see what, if anything, he hits, right? Because the cops would be way out of line using deadly force if he was only shooting in their direction and well over their heads, not at them. I’m sorry, your fault slider needs some re-calibration. I think yours is a little off. ---
**Author:** ![ethanwinfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/96bed5/32.png) [@ethanwinfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethanwinfield)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/18 "2006-01-17T03:52:38Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I don’t know. Still can’t find anything but the dad. If it was just the dad, I’d move the fault slider away from the cops and more towards the kid. But it still doesn’t sound like they handled it particularly well. I’m still a little unclear on this. Was the dad telling them over the phone or was he at the scene? If it is the latter, wouldn’t it have been more useful to plead with his son to put down the fake gun than yelling at the cops that the gun was fake? If you make people think that you have a real gun, they are going to treat you as though you have a real gun. For the sake of argument, if he hadn’t been shot in the exchange, would it have mattered? I mean, aren’t the charges the same whether you use a real firearm or a fake one that is made to look real? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/19 "2006-01-17T03:54:16Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > And even then, they’d have to see what, if anything, he hits, right? Nope. They could shoot right away then. > [@liberty3701](#): > > Couldn’t they have shot him in the shoulder or something? Just asking. No. For a variety of reasons, a firearm makes a bad less-then-lethal weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/20 "2006-01-17T03:57:33Z")
> [@ethanwinfield](#): > > If you make people think that you have a real gun, they are going to treat you as though you have a real gun. But if they have reason to suspect that it isn’t a real gun, and that you’re suicidal and not homicidal, they shouldn’t treat you as if you had a real gun and were about to shoot someone. > [@ethanwinfield](#): > > For the sake of argument, if he hadn’t been shot in the exchange, would it have mattered? Yes. He’d be alive. That’s more important then the legal repercussions he’d have faced. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300.md?page=2)