# I pit the family of that kid who got shot. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 17, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300 "2006-01-17T02:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/41 "2006-01-17T05:55:57Z")
Just because law enforcement officers have firearms does not mean they are militarized. It means that the jurisdiction involved has passed such legislation to permit those officers to use firearms in the course of their duty, one of which is to protect the general public. Those same officers are also trained in not only how to use deadly force but also when to use deadly force. Totally bogus to blame the police in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/42 "2006-01-17T06:02:19Z")
Here’s the thing. The Police have specific policy procedures about the use of deadly force. We probably don’t know enough about those procedures in FL nor do we know all the facts in the case. Why not wait until the investigation produces a report detailing the actions of the cops relative to the approved procedures before blaming them? If the cops acted properly, and you’re still pissed, blamed the procedures and the training that the cops receive, not the cops themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/43 "2006-01-17T06:18:33Z")
Just to clarify: suppose the cops were told, forcefully and repeatedly, that there was someone in the house with a fake or BB gun. How much of a difference would that _really_ make in both reaction of the SWAT team, and in fault? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/44 "2006-01-17T06:39:00Z")
Where were the less than lethal options in this situation? Why didn’t this kid go down in a hail of bean bags or rubber bullets instead of the real thing? ---
**Author:** ![Thalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@Thalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thalion)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/45 "2006-01-17T06:42:06Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Once you’ve chased someone into a corner and they aren’t in a position to hurt anyone but themselves, whatever happened to just hanging back and talking to them? Actually, it appears that is **exactly** what they did! According to the linked story, they were trying to negotiate with the kid but he wouldn’t speak to them. They had set up containment outside and did not rush in. The kid then came out, _ **pointed his gun at a deputy** _, and the deputy shot him. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/46 "2006-01-17T06:50:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > There might be an ambulance chasing lawyer to Pit in there somewhere, There is. The lawyer is a “have you been injured” type who runs frequent ads on local TV. ---
**Author:** ![Thalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@Thalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thalion)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/47 "2006-01-17T07:04:55Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Where were the less than lethal options in this situation? Why didn’t this kid go down in a hail of bean bags or rubber bullets instead of the real thing? First, (this is a pet peeve of mine, and it’s committed by my fellow cops just as much as anyone else), they are called _less-lethal_. They can still kill - they are just less likely to do so. Remember, less-lethal weapons are not 100% effective. Even if they had the opportunity, it wouldn’t necessarily have knocked the kid to the ground and ended the situation. I can only assume that they had some type of less-lethal option available. To be used in this situation, the guy with the less-lethal would have to be right where the involved deputy was and ready to take the shot when appropriate. But when would that have been? As soon as the kid stepped out the door? That might have caused the kid to open fire, even if he were planning to surrender. With the kid pointing the gun at his own head? Too much risk that this would cause the kid to shoot himself even if he didn’t intend to do so. Once the kid pointed the gun at the deputy, he should no more wait to see if the less-lethal (if it was there) will save his life than he should let the kid get off one shot to see if the gun is real. Once the gun was pointed at the deputy, nothing else mattered but saving his own life. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/48 "2006-01-17T07:13:15Z")
> [@Thalion](#): > > First, (this is a pet peeve of mine, and it’s committed by my fellow cops just as much as anyone else), they are called _less-lethal_. They can still kill - they are just less likely to do so. > > Remember, less-lethal weapons are not 100% effective. Even if they had the opportunity, it wouldn’t necessarily have knocked the kid to the ground and ended the situation. Less than lethal is perfectly acceptable and I have heard it used by numerous police officers and other such experts on shows about said armaments. > [@Thalion](#): > > Once the kid pointed the gun at the deputy, he should no more wait to see if the less-lethal (if it was there) will save his life than he should let the kid get off one shot to see if the gun is real. Once the gun was pointed at the deputy, nothing else mattered but saving his own life. Why aren’t guys with less than lethal weapons on the front lines instead of officers carrying the real deal? I’ve seen people get shot by bean bags and other such items. In terms of protecting the officer from what I’ve read and seen getting hit by a bean bag is going to stop anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Thalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@Thalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thalion)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/49 "2006-01-17T07:24:11Z")
[Just in case Metacom does stop by again.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7004796#post7004796) ---
**Author:** ![Thalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@Thalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thalion)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/50 "2006-01-17T07:30:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why aren’t guys with less than lethal weapons on the front lines instead of officers carrying the real deal? I’ve seen people get shot by bean bags and other such items. In terms of protecting the officer from what I’ve read and seen getting hit by a bean bag is going to stop anyone. No, they simply don’t stop everyone. I’ve seen plenty of training videos of people being shot with bean bags, batons, pepper spray, mace, fire hoses and Tasers that just keep fighting. And in a case like this, all the fight it takes is for the suspect to pull a trigger. When the less-lethal is deployed, that person **always** has someone with lethal force available right with him. Even if there was a deputy right there with a less-lethal weapon, when the kid pointed the gun the less-lethal guy would hit the ground while the deputy takes the shot. You just don’t meet deadly force with less-lethal response. As I said in my other thread, I’m not paid to commit suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/51 "2006-01-17T11:15:49Z")
OK, let’s assume for the sake of argument that at least two people did tell the SWAT team that the kid had a non-lethal weapon. The kid, himself, by pointing the gun at himself and threatening to kill himself, told the police he did have a lethal weapon and intended to use it to kill. I’d say his actions and his own statements were more creditable than what other people said. I actually attempted suicide-by-cop once, albeit badly, clumsily, and completely ineffectively. The parts of my brain that were working knew full well what I was doing and I genuinely wanted to and expected to wind up dead. This is a tragedy and my heart goes out to the parents, but I believe the SWAT team acted appropriately, and I also have some sympathy for the deputy. It can’t be an easy thing to live with. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/52 "2006-01-17T11:40:48Z")
Speaking of suicide, although the guy probably did not initially set out that day with the intention to commit suicide, it does raise a tangential issue which has always fascinated me. Is it a policeman’s duty/legal obligation/moral obligation to stop a person from committing suicide? And if it is, why? ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/53 "2006-01-17T12:53:17Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Once you’ve chased someone into a corner and they aren’t in a position to hurt anyone but themselves, whatever happened to just hanging back and talking to them? Waiting for more info? > > […] > > What were they thinking? "We’ve got the kid cornered. He can’t hurt anyone but himself. Except that the bathroom adjoined a full classroom, and a stray shot might go through the wall. So until you can prove it’s not a real gun, you have to assume that it is a real gun, and the kid is a threat to the officers and the other students. When he’s made the decision to threaten them, he becomes the most expendable person in the room. ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/54 "2006-01-17T13:20:45Z")
Um… Has anyone noticed that the kid isn’t actually dead? According to the two news stories I’ve read, he’s on “advanced life support”. Doesn’t sound promising, sure, but if he survives I think we’d have the best possible outcome of this situation. The cops did what they had to do to protect themselves and the public, and no-one died. Result. FTR as far as I’m concerned the cops were absolutely 100% in the right whether he comes through or not, but a lt of people don’t seem to have picked up on this little detail. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/55 "2006-01-17T13:25:00Z")
> [@wayward](#): > > Um… Has anyone noticed that the kid isn’t actually dead? [Yes he is](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-miket1706jan17,0,4631365.column?coll=orl-news-col). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/56 "2006-01-17T13:27:15Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > [Yes he is](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-miket1706jan17,0,4631365.column?coll=orl-news-col). > > Daniel Ah. My bad. Forget that then. Cops were still right. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/57 "2006-01-17T16:10:35Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Only… He wasn’t pointing a weapon at a marine. Or any other member of the armed forces. He pointed it at _police officers_, who, even if they got to wear the Gestapo-gear with “SWAT” in yellow letters on the back, are NOT the military and are NOT supposed to act like the military. > > If the police were told by multiple people that the kid did not have a real gun, I don’t think they should have used deadly force to subdue him. Would that have been risky? Yup. Could it have turned out to be a real gun? Sure. But it’s a risk they should have taken. I think even civilians, let alone the police, are legally justified in shooting a guy pointing a realistic-looking gun at them. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/58 "2006-01-17T16:16:20Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > Couldn’t they have shot him in the shoulder or something? Just asking. It’d be easier to shoot him in the head or the arm, and those aren’t the easiest shots in the world. Actually, try for the shorder, you’d probably end up hitting the neck and severing a major artery. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/59 "2006-01-17T16:36:28Z")
The gun in the photo looks pretty realistic to me and I have experience with handguns. Nothing gives a clue to it being fake, in my opinion. I imagine that it would be even harder to make that distinction from a distance, when it’s being pointed at you. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300/60 "2006-01-17T16:53:44Z")
Airsoft guns are fairly large caliber, too. Not like pellet guns where at least the barrel size will tip you off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-family-of-that-kid-who-got-shot/340300.md?page=4)