# I Pit the Hatred of Hillary **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284 "2016-07-30T14:33:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/41 "2016-07-30T19:27:15Z")
@septimus The thread is indeed about irrational hatred of Hillary. Only meant to show you that not all anti-Trumpers have only irrational dislike of Hillary or no reason not to support her. It’s your thread but I suggest digging up some quotes from some of the members who have talked Hillary lately that got you to start this thread. You wanted to talk about the blind haters, who are we talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/42 "2016-07-30T19:52:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I assume you meant that Hillary voted for the Authorization of Use of Force in Iraq. If that’s the case, I disagree that political expediency was the only factor in her decision. I doubt it was even a major one. I’d say she voted to give Bush the tools he claimed were necessary because she believed it was the best step in preventing a nuclear armed Iraq, given the information and intel presented at the time. > How that makes her a war hawk, I have never understood. > > Her fault of believing Bush does show some error of judgement. But it is also a teachable moment. Most of us did not realize what lengths and lies the republicans would go to to get their war. She did not either. She knows now to never again “misunderestimate” the republicans. I call bullshit on all that. A five year old could’ve seen through the Bush case for Iraq. There’s no way Hillary is dumb enough to have bought that bullshit. Face it, she voted for Iraq because she didn’t want to seem weak. Say what you like about Trump, at least he didn’t vote for Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/43 "2016-07-30T19:59:08Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > The position is based on what I hear fact-checkers say about her legislative record. > > [http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/20/hillary-clinton/spot-check-hillary-clintons-senate-record-immolate/](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/20/hillary-clinton/spot-check-hillary-clintons-senate-record-immolate/) > > Debunks the idea that Clinton was particularly effective at rallying Republicans to support her proposed amendments. **Pizzaguy** , you’re usually better than that. That page fact-checks a particular statistical claim, arguably tangential to the real issue of Clinton’s bipartisan strength. Sheeeez. I trot out specific examples of Republicans praising her, and specific legislation she achieved by “crossing the aisle” and you Google to come up with … just that silly nitpick? Proves my point, rather. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/44 "2016-07-30T20:00:21Z")
I apologize if this is off topic. This is more of a meta comment on Hillary hate than examining why she’s hated. For the better part of a decade in Dem and left leaning circles you could find debates on the practicality of a Hillary run. I remember several from this board. The against position went something like: she’s a lightning rod of controversy and always seems to be in a scandal real or imagined which distracts from the issues, the left dislikes her, and the right loathes her with every fiber of their being and would do anything to stop her. The Hillary supporters generally said it didn’t matter, because: 1. Her unfavorables couldn’t go any lower since she’s been around forever and the GOP already threw everything and the kitchen sink at her. 2. She’s battle tested and knows how to deal with GOP BS. 3. People associate the Clinton name with the '90s, which was a swell time. Well, she’s currently in a neck and neck race against Donald Trump, of all people. Would it be controversial to say she would be losing badly to a “normal” GOP candidate? She may still win, but I think her supporters were forgetting something. Elections are literally popularity contests. You should put up popular candidates. If she loses, what do you do? Blame the electorate? Maybe do some serious soul searching? Why was it so important to nominate her, in particular? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/45 "2016-07-30T20:02:26Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I call bullshit on all that. A five year old could’ve seen through the Bush case for Iraq. There’s no way Hillary is dumb enough to have bought that bullshit. Face it, she voted for Iraq because she didn’t want to seem weak. Say what you like about Trump, at least he didn’t vote for Iraq. He had no opportunity to _vote_ for the war. However, he did have the chance to speak out against it. [Which he didn’t.](http://www.factcheck.org/2016/02/donald-trump-and-the-iraq-war/) > [@](#): > > There is no evidence that we could find, however, that he spoke against the war before it started, although we did find he expressed early concerns about the cost and direction of the war a few months after it started. > > Others have looked, but no one else — including PolitiFact and the Washington Post Fact Checker — has been able to find any evidence to support his claims, either. Now, BuzzFeed reports that Trump indicated his support for war in a radio interview with shock jock Howard Stern on Sept. 11, 2002 — a little more than six months before the war started. > > **Stern asked Trump directly if he supported going to war with Iraq, and Trump hesitantly responded, “Yeah, I guess so.”** ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/46 "2016-07-30T20:09:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > **Pizzaguy** , you’re usually better than that. That page fact-checks a particular statistical claim, arguably tangential to the real issue of Clinton’s bipartisan strength. > > Sheeeez. I trot out specific examples of Republicans praising her, and specific legislation she achieved by “crossing the aisle” and you Google to come up with … just that silly nitpick? Proves my point, rather. I don’t agree that you have proved your point. You have some examples of _some_ legislation that was bipartisan. But the claim is that she is better at being bipartisan or that she will appeal to Republicans because reasons. That she will be a uniter. For that claim to be \*\*based \*\*on something, that something should be her record. Her record is not remarkable in terms of achieving high levels of bipartisan success, which is what the link says. A few instances is not the whole picture. The disagreement we’re having hasn’t concluded one way or the other, but what I’m saying was supported by the link. In what ways has Hillary been remarkably our outstandingly bipartisan? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/47 "2016-07-30T20:24:57Z")
BTW we can move this side discussion to a different thread if you like. Ping me with a link. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/48 "2016-07-30T21:00:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I should have just provided a TL;DR for simpletons: **Hillary voted for S.J. Res. 45 _not_ because she wanted Bush to pursue a stupid preemptive war in Iraq but _because she didn’t._** She voted to authorize the war because she was opposed to going to war? I mean, I know Hillary fans are resorting to weird mental gymnastics to decide to like her these days, but to argue that voting FOR allowing Bush to pursue the war in Iraq was done because she did not want him to really takes the cake. If you don’t want the country going to war, don’t vote to allow the use of military force. If you do vote to authorize military force, then you did vote for the war, regardless of any excuses or weasel words you tack on to it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/49 "2016-07-30T21:24:43Z")
Many of us here, if not most, knew that GeeDub was lying, or at least misled. But not everybody knew. Don’t forget, it was packaged to sell as an effort towards peace. That with that power behind him, GeeDubya could negotiate from strength, bring Saddam around, you know the drill. Hell, the man was a fool, maybe he even believed it himself! A better man, a smarter man, could have taken that resolution and used in exactly as he promised. A smarter man would have realized that Saddam could not openly admit how disarmed he was. A smarter man, a better man, might have found a way. Alas, he was neither. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/50 "2016-07-30T21:42:53Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No, I’m Pitting the Dopers who are smart enough to know Trump really is an abomination, and yet have so much irrational hatred for Hillary Clinton that they’re happy to work, directly or indirectly, for Trump victory. Why are you assuming people don’t have a rational hatred of Hillary? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/51 "2016-07-30T21:55:02Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > @septimus > > The thread is indeed about irrational hatred of Hillary. Only meant to show you that not all anti-Trumpers have only irrational dislike of Hillary or no reason not to support her. > > It’s your thread but I suggest digging up some quotes from some of the members who have talked Hillary lately that got you to start this thread. You wanted to talk about the blind haters, who are we talking about? Agreed. I think we can all get behind condemning “irrational hatred” in the abstract. Nothing controversial about that. It’s no guarantee, of course, but maybe the thread has a better chance of staying on track if the OP focuses on those specific people/arguments on this MB that he deems to be examples of “irrational hatred”. I’m sure there are at least a few. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/52 "2016-07-30T22:17:19Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I don’t think the conservative hatred is real, they’re just pissed off the Clintons destroyed the GOP electoral lock that existed from 1968-1988. > [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The electoral lock? I know Carter wasn’t a particularly good President, but that’s no reason to ignore him. Also, Congress was owned by the Democratic Party for decades. Electoral lock, indeed. ## I think he meant 1980-1988, because the Dems controlled both houses during the 1970s. The OP sells Hillary Clinton short. There are 4 main aspects of the Presidency. They are policy, communication, implementation and stamina. In most democracies the leader of the party is tested on all 4. But US elections only really evaluate communication and stamina well. (All nominees who can get through the primary have prerequisite physical stamina, even Trump.) Hillary sucks at speechmaking, though she does well in debates and town hall meetings. Her policy chops are fantastic. Her implementation is great, as is her coalition building. Hillary Clinton will cut deals with anyone: she is incredibly disarming in person. As a Senator she reached across the aisle and worked with Tom DeLay (R) on foster children. She and Gingrich worked together on health care after the former speaker had left the House. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and Clinton wrote bills on computerized medical records. [Ezra Klein](http://www.vox.com/a/hillary-clinton-interview/the-gap-listener-leadership-quality): “The list goes on: Senator Robert Bennett on flag-burning; Senator Rick Santorum on children’s exposure to graphic images; Senator John Sununu on S.U.V. taillights; Senator Mike DeWine on asthma.” This is more than just playing the inside game: this was playing it with care and innovation. And Hillary has always been this way: if there’s a way to improve matters, some angle, some opportunity, Clinton will advance the ball. Back in college she pushed forward a reform on regarding freaking library books.\* She’s a do-gooder and she’s not afraid or too egotistical to play small-ball. Always fighting for the commonwealth. Never gives up. Never. > [@elucidator](#): > > Just don’t like her. I got beefs with her and her husband and all the rest of the Clintonistas who took the Dem party to be Republican Lite. I have some ear to give the argument that it was necessary if any opposition at all were to be maintained. Defensive, rear guard action. > > That perhaps professional, lifelong politicians may actually know more about this shit than I do. Still pisses me off. > > Thing is, I kinda like Bill, even as I figure he was at least as much responsible as Hillary, maybe even more so. But I don’t like her. So, its a bias. Has to be. Yeah, 30 years of right wing bullshit, plus her sub-par oratory will do that. But Hillary is one of the good ones. Her staff loves her, mainly because she actually listens to what she says. If she joined the Senate in 1992, she would be Majority or Minority Leader now. She’s that good. - ETA: From memory. Couldn’t find it on google. Might be mangled. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/53 "2016-07-30T22:21:57Z")
Hillary. The best reason she even has a chance is she is running against Trump. Trump. The best reason he even has a chance is he is running against Hillary. Glad I found my unused Rose Perot bumper sticker recently. Might need to whip that puppy out. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/54 "2016-07-30T22:24:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Agreed. I think we can all get behind condemning “irrational hatred” in the abstract. Nothing controversial about that. > > It’s no guarantee, of course, but maybe the thread has a better chance of staying on track if the OP focuses on those specific people/arguments on this MB that he deems to be examples of “irrational hatred”. I’m sure there are at least a few. Absolutely typical **John Mace** snark. Pretentious malarkey of no worth whatsoever. If your name had been erased, I’d know it was you. If you want this thread steered in a different direction, take the stick out of your rectum so you can sit down, and write your own post. If not, shut up for once. **John Mace** — the guy who’s so proud of himself because sometimes he’s the 4th-smartest guy in the room. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/55 "2016-07-30T22:28:04Z")
Ah here we go: [INDENT][INDENT] There’s another way to put this: Hillary Clinton is a nerd. You see it at every stage of her life. As a kid she went door to door collecting census data, asking homeowners if they had “any children in the home who are not in school” so that the Census Bureau could understand the discrepancy between the total number of children and those who are enrolled in school. As a student at Wellesley, writes Carl Bernstein, she developed “a better system for the return of library books” and “studied every aspect of the Wellesley curriculum in developing a successful plan to reduce the number of required courses.” Writing in the Atlantic, Peter Beinart collects other examples of Clinton’s earnest, and authentic, nerdiness: [INDENT][INDENT] In 1993, she took time off from a vacation in Hawaii to grill local officials about the state’s healthcare system. In his excellent book on Hillary’s 2000 Senate race, Michael Tomasky observes that, “In the entire campaign, she had exactly one truly inspiring moment” but that, “over time it became evident to all but the most cynical that she actually cared about utility rates.”[/INDENT] [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] [Hillary Clinton should go full nerd: The Democratic frontrunner should offer voters her authentic geeky self.](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/06/hillary_clinton_should_go_full_nerd_the_democratic_frontrunner_should_offer.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/56 "2016-07-30T22:36:17Z")
So people dislike that Hillary voted for war in Iraq, and to make sure this never happens again they are voting for… Trump? Really? In other news, my state is too cold, so I will move to Antarctica. That’ll fix the problem! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/57 "2016-07-30T22:38:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Absolutely typical **John Mace** snark. Snark? There was not an ounce of snark in that post. You seemed to be wondering why your thread wasn’t staying on track, and I was agreeing with Askthepizzaguy as to the reason. But whatever. It’s your thread, do as you please. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/58 "2016-07-30T22:42:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Snark? There was not an ounce of snark in that post. Snark in last sentence. FWIW. So that aspect of septimus’s [del]purely ad hominem attack[/del] post is not inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/59 "2016-07-30T22:51:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …I’m sure there are at least a few. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Snark in last sentence… That sentence can just as easily be read as a flat and unaccented statement of fact. Not that I know anything about snark… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284/60 "2016-07-30T22:58:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That sentence can just as easily be read as a flat and unaccented statement of fact. Not that I know anything about snark… We might even have one in this thread already: **Airman Doors**. Otherwise intelligent guy\*, saying he will not vote for Hill. He didn’t give a reason, although I might guess it has something to do with the 2nd amendment. IIRC, he lives in PA, which is a swing state, to boot. \*The OP is not Pitting all Hillary haters, but the one who are or should be smart enough to know better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-hatred-of-hillary/761284.md?page=4)