# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 119
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2361 "2012-08-22T02:43:30Z")
Even if were to assume that each and every one of these reports are entirely accurate, some of our most populous states are on that list. Overlooking, of course, our repeated corrections that voter registration fraud is a whole different kettle of piranha. Setting that aside, that you appear to have no idea what we are talking about, we still have a vanishingly small number here. Its like if you were in one of those domed football stadiums, a butterfly farts and you start complaining of the smell… ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2362 "2012-08-22T03:28:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Setting that aside, that you appear to have no idea what we are talking about, we still have a vanishingly small number here. It has been repeatedly stated that unless fraud is more than those who would be inconvenienced then voter ID shouldn’t be implemented. And as the number of those who may be inconvenienced is 10% of the population, then there is no way that fraud will be that high. Thus, in your mind, there will never be a case for voter ID even if there is a national ID system in place. There will always be people who don’t have an ID and it will likely be more people than the demonstrated amount of fraud. Why is this even part of the discussion anymore when both sides are so far apart? Side A: It is better that someone doesn’t get to vote than that someone who shouldn’t be allowed to does. Side B: It is better that someone gets to vote even if that means that someone who shouldn’t be allowed to does. How do you cross the bridge between these two camps? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2363 "2012-08-22T03:34:39Z")
The voices in your head are arguing with each other. Seek help. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2364 "2012-08-22T03:37:13Z")
At least it is an intelligent converstation 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2365 "2012-08-22T04:30:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Addenda: see also the Wikepedia page for this organization: > > [American Center for Voting Rights - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Center_for_Voting_Rights) Ah, yes. I ran a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424335) on that back in 2007. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2366 "2012-08-22T14:08:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Side A: It is better that someone doesn’t get to vote than that someone who shouldn’t be allowed to does. > Side B: It is better that someone gets to vote even if that means that someone who shouldn’t be allowed to does. > How do you cross the bridge between these two camps? First, by representing them both accurately and fairly. The “sides” you describe exist only in your fantasies. Here’s a hint: The “someone” on one side doesn’t actually exist, and the “someone” on the other side is rather extensive in number, as this discussion should have explained to you. Once you have fixed your conceptual problem there, since you ask, the tiebreaker is “Which approach is better for strengthening and broadening democracy?” ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2367 "2012-08-22T23:44:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > First, by representing them both accurately and fairly. The “sides” you describe exist only in your fantasies. Here’s a hint: The “someone” on one side doesn’t actually exist, and the “someone” on the other side is rather extensive in number, as this discussion should have explained to you. Speaking of living in a fantasy world. Given the number of people who support voter ID and the number of countries who have it, I can make a pretty accurate leap and say most people agree with Side A. But I’m willing to learn. Why do you think that there us such a gap here? Why does one side think that ID laws are good and the other think they are bad? From the arguments put forth in this thread, it looks like what I’ve suggested is the closest to the truth. I believe that the Republicans are doing this for their own purposes, but that is just noise and fundamentally most people who support voter ID do so for other reasons. > [@](#): > > Once you have fixed your conceptual problem there, since you ask, the tiebreaker is “Which approach is better for strengthening and broadening democracy?” Side A, of course. People don’t have confidence in democracy if they don’t feel that their vote actually counts or be nullified by those who shouldn’t be voting. Which is why most countries have this or similar requirement. Which goes to my point. The sides are so far apart that it is impossible to agree. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2368 "2012-08-23T00:40:12Z")
Repetition number 156: Not about the validity of voter id. About using that as an excuse to make voting more difficult for some citizens, as a means to a political advantage. Repetition number 157: Not about the validity of voter id. About using that as an excuse to make voting more difficult for some citizens, as a means to a political advantage. Repetition number 158: Not about the validity of voter id. About using that as an excuse to make voting more difficult for some citizens, as a means to a political advantage. There. That ought to hold for a couple of hours. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2369 "2012-08-23T01:18:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There. That ought to hold for a couple of hours. And it is too bad your reading comprehension is broken at the moment considering I addressed that in my post. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2370 "2012-08-30T17:47:43Z")
[Federal court overturns Texas voter ID law.](http://www.texastribune.org/texas-politics/voter-id/dc-court-rejects-voter-id-law/) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2371 "2012-08-30T18:45:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Federal court overturns Texas voter ID law.](http://www.texastribune.org/texas-politics/voter-id/dc-court-rejects-voter-id-law/) No. Federal court denies Texas a declaratory judgement that their Voter ID law meets Section 5’s standards. The DoJ already declined to pre-clear the law, and court has not found enough evidence to overturn DoJ’s decision. The law was never in place, because Texas is covered by Section 5 of the Voting Rightd Act, which places the burden on Texas to prove it’s proposed law won’t have a discriminatory effect on minorities. They failed to do so. I am not sure this opinion will survive. It came from Dave Tatel, a Clinton appointee who founded the Chicago Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law and was a director of the office of civil rights in HUD; and Robert Wilkins, an Obama appointee who was the lead plaintiff in the 90s in a racial discrimination case against the Maryland State Police – the case that made “driving while black” a recognizable phrase. In both these jurists, I think there’s a willingness to view minority voting through a slightly different lens than the Supreme Court does. But unless and until the Supreme Court takes a look, then sure enough, Texas can’t impose its voter ID law. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2372 "2012-08-30T19:17:22Z")
From the decision… > [@](#): > > …Nothing in this opinion remotely suggests that section 5 bars all covered jurisdictions from implementing photo ID laws. To the contrary, under our reasoning today, such laws might well be precleared if they ensure (1) that all prospective voters can easily obtain free photo ID, and (2) that any underlying documents required to obtain that ID are truly free of charge… Offered without comment. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2373 "2012-08-30T19:40:34Z")
That is a standard for preclearing the DOJ requirements. Nothing says tose requirements are necessary for a valid ID law, merely that it cannot be precleared. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2374 "2012-09-01T19:03:13Z")
Sorry if someone’s already posted [this link](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/in-south-carolina-shockingly-candid-talk-about-voter-discrimination/261760/). One factor often ignored is that not all ID-challenged voters will be treated equally: > [@](#): > > Beeney: Ms. Andino, just to follow up a little bit on some of the Court’s questions. If my reasonable impediment is I have no transportation to the county seat, I have to get to the county seat to defend that, right? > > Andino: Not unless it’s challenged. > > Beeney: Well, if it’s challenged, the only way I can defend it is to get to the county seat, which might suggest to a county commissioner that a lack of transportation reasonable impediment is false, since you’re standing in front of me trying to defend your ballot. A voter whose ballot is made provisional because poor transportation interfered with getting ID must demonstrate good transportation to answer the challenge that his transportation wasn’t poor. :smack: And that’s only if the voter is challenged. Does anyone think challenges will be applied equally? (BTW, the article links to a complete court transcript. But can anyone explain why Scribd doc is the format for such a thing?) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2375 "2012-09-02T10:18:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Sorry if someone’s already posted [this link](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/in-south-carolina-shockingly-candid-talk-about-voter-discrimination/261760/). > > One factor often ignored is that not all ID-challenged voters will be treated equally: > > A voter whose ballot is made provisional because poor transportation interfered with getting ID must demonstrate good transportation to answer the challenge that his transportation wasn’t poor. :smack: And that’s only if the voter is challenged. Does anyone think challenges will be applied equally? > > (BTW, the article links to a complete court transcript. But can anyone explain why Scribd doc is the format for such a thing?) Where in your link does it show that ID-challenged voters will be treated unequally? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2376 "2012-09-02T14:09:12Z")
Who is going to be doing all of this “challenging”? People who believe in voter fraud, or people who don’t? People who want to exploit the myth of voter fraud, or people who don’t? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2377 "2012-09-02T16:18:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Where in your link does it show that ID-challenged voters will be treated unequally? **Since you did read the link, _Brickwit_, do you care to comment on _it_ rather than my characterization of it?** I’m not asking for an intelligent comment, an intelligible one will do. To address your “point”: The difference between the assholes on your team and decent humans, is that we humans believe in the garbage you assholes pretend to preach: Equality Under the Law. In precincts dominated by decent officials, ID laws will be applied equally. In precincts dominated by the assholes you support, you can bet your filthy underwear there will be incidents equivalent to > [@](#): > > Oh, Mizz Beauregard, you been a fine upstandin Repugnican since I watched your Mama change your diapers. You can vote even if your forgot your driver’s license, honey! > … [and later] > Yeah I seen you around, nigger. Probably stealing things. Don’t matter I know you or not. You don’ have no ID you not voting for no nigger in my precinct, you ain’t. (I’ve misworded this to show the true feelings behind the dainty polite diction of precinct officials, and to make the point clear.) I’m not necessarily accusing you of racism, **Brickwit**. I think it’s just barely possible that you are so stupid and badly informed that you don’t even grasp that your team is based on hypocrisy and racism. But, yeah, you’re right about one thing: The link I gave didn’t _fully_ develop the theme of unequal treatment. But hints of it were clearly visible to anyone with a 100+ IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2378 "2012-09-02T16:34:17Z")
This just in: _Bricker’s utter failure campaign continues into September._ More information as it becomes available. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2379 "2012-09-02T16:35:32Z")
[quote=“Uzi, post:2367, topic:624943”] > [@](#): > > From the arguments put forth in this thread, it looks like what I’ve suggested is the closest to the truth. I believe that the Republicans are doing this for their own purposes, but that is just noise and fundamentally most people who support voter ID do so for other reasons. Yeah, mostly voter suppression. > [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Federal court denies Texas a declaratory judgement that their Voter ID law meets Section 5’s standards. The DoJ already declined to pre-clear the law, and court has not found enough evidence to overturn DoJ’s decision. Virginia had its voter ID law pre-cleared a little while ago. It permits the use of utility bills, social security cards, bank statements and birth certificates. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2380 "2012-09-02T16:38:24Z")
Rereading my post, I can see that I’ve been driven past exasperation by the Brick. I apologize to anyone (except him) that I’ve offended. The Brick is the only Doper I refuse to exchange posts with outside of the BBQ Pit. What is so infuriating about the asshole is how disingenuous he is. That’s plainly visible in this thread. I detest pretended stupidity much more than real stupidity. Sure, in a sense **Bricker** isn’t so special: One could end up in any drunk tank in West Texas and be likely to find a frothing-at-the-mouth looney with ideas almost as stupid as Bricker’s ideas. The difference is that the drunk looney knows no better: he’s a moron. Bricker is (or at least was) smart enough to graduate from law school. Yet look at the filth and gibberish he posts. Maybe you’re a decent human being, Brick, with progressive ideas, and are laughing at gullible Dopers who fall for your claptrap. If so, Kudos! If not, I just pity you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=118) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=120)