# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 134
**Author:** ![Mr.Greenjeans](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.greenjeans/32/551_2.png) [@Mr.Greenjeans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Greenjeans)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2661 "2012-10-16T14:23:56Z")
I probably should back off on my previous post. It looks like that misinformation came from the (very Dem) City of Philadelphia. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2662 "2012-10-16T15:00:38Z")
Millions of registered PA voters were sent mailers in Sept. telling them that ID would be required. New mailers will not be sent correcting this. [http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-12/confusion-sown-in-pennsylvania-by-lingering-voter-id-ads#p2](http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-12/confusion-sown-in-pennsylvania-by-lingering-voter-id-ads#p2) > [@](#): > > Pennsylvania won’t send postcards informing voters they aren’t required to present identification at polling places, Keeler said. Mailers were sent in September notifying 8.3 million registered voters saying that would be necessary. How many people will stay away because they believe that they don’t have the proper ID? Hopefully the Dems will make correcting this a big part of their get out the vote drive, but that means resources directed away from pure “get out the vote” to letting people know that they actually can vote. In any case it’s looking like PA will go for Obama, but I’m concerned about whether or not it may affect other races. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2663 "2012-10-16T18:32:19Z")
And this just in, courtesy of your good friends at **Talking Points Memo** : [http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/supreme-court-turns-down-ohio-early-voting-case?ref=fpa](http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/supreme-court-turns-down-ohio-early-voting-case?ref=fpa) **Supreme Court Turns Down Ohio Early Voting Case** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2664 "2012-10-16T19:01:19Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > **Bricker** , maybe you’ve come up with ONE example of voter fraud where ID laws could be relevant. Maybe. I’m not sure about that because that actual act that caused laws to be broken seems to be the casting of an absentee ballot. The article states that Fleming was a Sugar Land resident so if he had simply voted there in person there wouldn’t be an issue. So it seems like the act that has to be proven was the absentee vote. How would voter ID help with that? Why doesn’t he ave an equal claim to Pennsylvania residency? > [@](#): > > But let’s assume for the moment, for the sake of argument, that you’ve found a case where ID laws could make a difference. > > It’s ONE case. One case versus making it more difficult for thousands of people to exercise their right to vote. Slightly more difficult. Versus having a system in place that reduces fraud. You say “one case,” without even a nod at the obvious truth that one reported case suggests many other unreported cases. > [@](#): > > And the case isn’t even what people have been warned against. The cry has been raised about thousands of illegal immigrants voting. I don’t think that Fleming falls into that category. So what? Does that make his illegal vote more palatable? ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2665 "2012-10-16T19:05:34Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Millions of registered PA voters were sent mailers in Sept. telling them that ID would be required. New mailers will not be sent correcting this. > [http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-12/confusion-sown-in-pennsylvania-by-lingering-voter-id-ads#p2](http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-12/confusion-sown-in-pennsylvania-by-lingering-voter-id-ads#p2) > How many people will stay away because they believe that they don’t have the proper ID? > > Hopefully the Dems will make correcting this a big part of their get out the vote drive, but that means resources directed away from pure “get out the vote” to letting people know that they actually can vote. > > **In any case it’s looking like PA will go for Obama** , but I’m concerned about whether or not it may affect other races. Just heard this morning there’s a new Quinnipiac poll that has Obama’s lead down to 4 in Pennsylvania. I’m not saying that’s really where the Pennsylvania voters are (it’s just one poll, compared to others with Obama up by double-digits), but that’s a bit too close for comfort, especially with these voter shenanigans going on. Just one poll, could be outlier, waiting for Nate Silver’s analysis … but these are the openings the GOP is looking for in order to use voter suppression to turn things their way. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2666 "2012-10-16T19:08:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You say “one case,” without even a nod at the obvious truth that one reported case suggests many other unreported cases. Oh, it suggests. _Suggests_. Well that’s a pretty powerful reason to disenfranchise thousands of voters. And if most of those would have voted for the other team? Happy coincidence I’m sure. Suggests. You crack me up. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2667 "2012-10-16T19:32:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why doesn’t he ave an equal claim to Pennsylvania residency? I’m going by the article, which states that he is a Sugar Land resident who also owns a home in PA. The fact that he is running for Precinct 1 commissioner in Sugar Land also strongly suggests that that was where he was residing at the time. Recall that a large portion of the discussion in this thread is about how unlikely in-person voter fraud is. I, and others, maintain that it’s unlikely because of the risk / reward ratio. The risk of being caught, _when appearing personally_, is too great for most rational people when compared to the reward of one extra vote. This case is not proof against that argument because Fleming voted in person in the precinct where he was known to reside and was known to be a candidate for office. No one was going to point to him and say, “I know you. You voted absentee in Pennsylvania!” The PA votes were stupid and risky, but less so because he didn’t have to present himself to people who might say, “hey, when did you move back”? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2668 "2012-10-16T20:10:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Oh, it suggests. _Suggests_. Well that’s a pretty powerful reason to disenfranchise thousands of voters. And if most of those would have voted for the other team? Happy coincidence I’m sure. > Suggests. You crack me up. He didn’t need **any** cases to suggest thousands. You just know they are out there… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2669 "2012-10-16T20:24:26Z")
Saw a two headed cat at a circus side show in Waco, TX. Which suggests that here are thousands of two headed cats in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2670 "2012-10-16T20:27:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Suggests. You crack me up. I’m even more cracked up by the part where he suggests _it’s actually okay to vote in more than one jurisdiction_. Presumably only if one votes “the right way”, of course. > [@Bricker](#): > > Why doesn’t he ave an equal claim to Pennsylvania residency? :p:rolleyes: And he claims to be a lawyer. With some knowledge of constitutional law, at that. A-frickin’-mazing. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2671 "2012-10-16T20:31:21Z")
He claimed that it’s okay to vote in more than one jurisdiction? I must have missed that. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2672 "2012-10-16T20:31:41Z")
I can just imagine Bricker as a proprietor of a Kmart, strip searching all his customers and then wondering why his bottom line is so bad when he has done such a good job at preventing shoplifting. From the lack of voter fraud it appears that at least %99.9 of votes cast without ID are legitimate. To throw them out to prevent the 0.1% that aren’t is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2673 "2012-10-16T20:48:18Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I’m going by the article, which states that he is a Sugar Land resident who also owns a home in PA. The fact that he is running for Precinct 1 commissioner in Sugar Land also strongly suggests that that was where he was residing at the time. > > Recall that a large portion of the discussion in this thread is about how unlikely in-person voter fraud is. I, and others, maintain that it’s unlikely because of the risk / reward ratio. The risk of being caught, _when appearing personally_, is too great for most rational people when compared to the reward of one extra vote. This case is not proof against that argument because Fleming voted in person in the precinct where he was known to reside and was known to be a candidate for office. No one was going to point to him and say, “I know you. You voted absentee in Pennsylvania!” > > The PA votes were stupid and risky, but less so because he didn’t have to present himself to people who might say, “hey, when did you move back”? I think your analysis depends on the poll precinct. In a larger city, the odds of being recognized are small. Of course, I agree that in-person voter fraud is unlikely to begin with: perhaps one in 25,000 votes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2674 "2012-10-16T20:50:11Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I can just imagine Bricker as a proprietor of a Kmart, strip searching all his customers and then wondering why his bottom line is so bad when he has done such a good job at preventing shoplifting. > > From the lack of voter fraud it appears that at least %99.9 of votes cast without ID are legitimate. To throw them out to prevent the 0.1% that aren’t is absurd. Of course, Voter ID rules won’t “throw out” 99.9% of legitimate votes, will they? And why do you get to decide the percentage cut-off point for “absurd?” Don’t we have a system that we use to make laws, when not all persons agree on what the wise law should be? Why do you believe you, and the small percentage of people that agree with you, should get to make this decision? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2675 "2012-10-16T20:50:15Z")
Doesn’t have to be real, that’s the beauty part. Its about voter confidence, and if the voter fears having his vote negated by illegal aliens, then that justifies a whole bunch of stuff because freedom. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2676 "2012-10-16T20:51:11Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > He claimed that it’s okay to vote in more than one jurisdiction? I must have missed that. What else can logically follow from the statement I quoted? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2677 "2012-10-16T20:52:24Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > He claimed that it’s okay to vote in more than one jurisdiction? I must have missed that. Who said that? Me? I never said that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2678 "2012-10-16T20:52:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Of course, I agree that in-person voter fraud is unlikely to begin with: perhaps one in 25,000 votes. From whence this interesting number, where did you pull that from? And why is it all brown and stinky? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2679 "2012-10-16T20:55:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > From whence this interesting number, where did you pull that from? And why is it all brown and stinky? I know it’s a long thread. But if you can’t be bothered to read it, I can’t be bothered to help you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2680 "2012-10-16T21:02:06Z")
Been here from the beginning, read every word, and you’re bluffing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=133) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=135)