# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 149
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2961 "2012-11-10T15:50:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Of course it does. I’m not disputing that legislation and the courts are the proper way of implementing and modifying public policy, even when the motivation for policy proposals happens to be imaginary fears whipped up by manipulative elitists. > > I’m jeering at you personally for **supporting** policy proposals motivated by imaginary fears whipped up by manipulative elitists. Piously intoning “Well, I myself am not a manipulative elitist, but I think the public’s fears on this issue deserve to be assuaged with legislative action” is malarkey. If the public’s fears are illusory, then no, they **don’t** deserve to be assuaged with legislative action, even though we cannot (nor should we) prevent manipulative elitists from pushing for such legislative action. > > The question is not “Should the body politic be somehow autocratically prevented from passing stupid legislation in response to imaginary threats?” We both agree that the answer to that question is “No”. Rather, the question is “Should we be **supporting** stupid legislation in response to imaginary threats?” This does not contradict anything you, personally, have said, but it stands in stark contrast to others’ words on the subject. The implication from others is that the legislation is itself illegitimate, not merely that they disfavor it but regard it as proper. Do you disagree with that characterization? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2962 "2012-11-10T17:48:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > See the point I am making? I accept the results of the system we agreed to use, even when it cuts against me. I may argue for change but I don’t call the results I don’t like illegitimate. What pretentious poppycock. Which cable-TV evangelist or commentator did you learn to spout “holier than thou” bullshit from? First of all, we all know you made your millions bamboozling stupid jurors. Your philosophy seems to be “Anything not illegal (or even, if illegal, non-prosecutable) is fair.” If that’s the extent of your moral compass, just go away, or put all rational Dopers on “Ignore.” I believe in the concepts of Right and Wrong. If you’re unfamiliar with the terms, stop reading now. Second, please don’t babble about how ghosts voted for JFK in 1960 so the GOP has to compensate by indulging in dirty tricks for the next million years. Here’s a simple question to test your knowledge of contemporary American politics: _ **Which of the two major political parties today engages in far more dirty tricks than the other?** _ (If you can’t get the correct answer to that question, it’ll mean you’re both stupid and a liar. In other threads you’ve implied that (1) you considered Karl Rove’s tricks the greatest American invention since adult diapers, and (2) you were proud that your side could enhance its electoral powers with tricks.) With those preliminaries out of the way, tell us what you think of Ohio’s gerrymandered plan to put its gerrymandering to work in the 2016 election. Speak strictly to matters of fairness and right vs wrong – no one’s interested in your “legal expertise.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2963 "2012-11-10T18:01:50Z")
> **[How the GOP’s War on Voting Backfired](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/how-gops-war-voting-backfired/)** > > The backlash to voter suppression laws led to higher turnout among young, black and Hispanic voters. > [@](#): > > …But the GOP’s suppression strategy failed. Ten major restrictive voting laws were blocked in court and turnout among young, black and Hispanic voters increased as a share of the electorate relative to 2008. > > Take a look at Ohio, where Ohio Republicans limited early voting hours as a way to decrease the African-American vote, which made up a majority of early voters in cities like Cleveland and Dayton. Early voting did fall relative to 2008 as a result of Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted’s cutbacks in early voting days and hours, but the overall share of the black electorate increased from 11 percent in 2008 to 15 percent in 2012. More than anything else, that explains why Barack Obama once again carried the state… Ali Berman, writing in _The Nation_ So, I guess we owe your guys a rousing cheer of gratitiude, **Bricker!** Had not been for your guys ham fisted efforts to stack the deck, we might not have won this one! Keep up the good work! Here’s your ribbon! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2964 "2012-11-10T19:04:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.thenation.com/blog/171146/how-gops-war-voting-backfired#](http://www.thenation.com/blog/171146/how-gops-war-voting-backfired#) > Ali Berman, writing in _The Nation_ > > So, I guess we owe your guys a rousing cheer of gratitiude, **Bricker!** Had not been for your guys ham fisted efforts to stack the deck, we might not have won this one! > > Keep up the good work! Here’s your ribbon! Great – let’s not hear any more complaints about limiting voting hours, then. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2965 "2012-11-10T19:05:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Great – let’s not hear any more complaints about limiting voting hours, then. Oh, you! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2966 "2012-11-10T19:07:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What pretentious poppycock. Which cable-TV evangelist or commentator did you learn to spout “holier than thou” bullshit from? > > First of all, we all know you made your millions bamboozling stupid jurors. Your philosophy seems to be “Anything not illegal (or even, if illegal, non-prosecutable) is fair.” If that’s the extent of your moral compass, just go away, or put all rational Dopers on “Ignore.” I believe in the concepts of Right and Wrong. If you’re unfamiliar with the terms, stop reading now. Me, too. Abortion is Wrong. Now what? > [@](#): > > With those preliminaries out of the way, tell us what you think of Ohio’s gerrymandered plan to put its gerrymandering to work in the 2016 election. Speak strictly to matters of fairness and right vs wrong – no one’s interested in your “legal expertise.” Are we gong to use my sense of right and wrong to determine legislation? Yours? Whose? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2967 "2012-11-10T19:26:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are we gong to use my sense of right and wrong to determine legislation? > > Yours? Whose? 😕 :smack: 😕 :smack: Just what brand of idiot are you?? As a voter I might vote for legislators who have a sense of right and wrong similar to my own. Is this hard for you to understand? Your only point seems to be that 51% of Americans might have become amoral, like you, and American democracy may therefore be doomed to fail. Maybe you’re right. If so, I see it as sad. You seem to find it a cause for giddy gloating. Whatever. Meanwhile, I asked you a very simple, very straightforward question. Go away until you can condescend to answer it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2968 "2012-11-10T20:11:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Great – let’s not hear any more complaints about limiting voting hours, then. Early voting is very popular with the American people. Plus, its legal and constitutional. And voter confidence! Totally good for voter confidence! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2969 "2012-11-10T20:15:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 :smack: 😕 :smack: > Just what brand of idiot are you?? As a voter I might vote for legislators who have a sense of right and wrong similar to my own. Is this hard for you to understand? > > Your only point seems to be that 51% of Americans might have become amoral, like you, and American democracy may therefore be doomed to fail. > > Maybe you’re right. If so, I see it as sad. You seem to find it a cause for giddy gloating. Whatever. > > Meanwhile, I asked you a very simple, very straightforward question. Go away until you can condescend to answer it. I asked you a question first. I’ll answer yours after you answer mine. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2970 "2012-11-10T20:51:33Z")
Aww, do you have a sad? Its just losing, don’t worry, you’ll get better at it with practice! And we’re here to help! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2971 "2012-11-10T21:00:39Z")
Your party is talking about amnesty Bricker. Does that make your stomach hurt? Also, you still haven’t addressed how voter confidence is served by making it much harder for many thousands of people to vote, in order to keep a car-full of people from fraudulent voting. Only a fool could think that is a sound idea. Are you a fool, Bricker? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2972 "2012-11-10T21:07:11Z")
Now, now, this is the time for compassionate healing! To extend the hand of bi-partisan comity to the losers, as we walk hand in hand together into a bright and progressive future! OK, maybe we have to drag them a little. A little encouragement. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2973 "2012-11-10T21:53:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This does not contradict anything you, personally, have said, but it stands in stark contrast to others’ words on the subject. The implication from others is that the legislation is itself illegitimate, not merely that they disfavor it but regard it as proper. > > Do you disagree with that characterization? I haven’t read every post by everyone in this thread, but I note that you have avoided answering Kimstu’s cogent point, which, as far as I’m concerned, is the utter key to this entire thread: > [@](#): > > Of course it does. I’m not disputing that legislation and the courts are the proper way of implementing and modifying public policy, even when the motivation for policy proposals happens to be imaginary fears whipped up by manipulative elitists. > > I’m jeering at you personally for supporting policy proposals motivated by imaginary fears whipped up by manipulative elitists. Slavery was, unquestionably, the law of the land for a long time. So were poll taxes, jim crow laws, lack-of-women’s-suffrage, and illegal consensual sodomy. All of those were, in their day, legal, enjoyed popular support, and had some rational justification. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2974 "2012-11-10T22:29:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Now, now, this is the time for compassionate healing! To extend the hand of bi-partisan comity to the losers, as we walk hand in hand together into a bright and progressive future! OK, maybe we have to drag them a little. A little encouragement. Fuck that. They’re dead weight, by their own choice too. Leave 'em behind. They’ve held us back too far for too long. They can either smarten up and try to catch up with us, or just keep sitting on the roadside, bewildered and angry at the world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2975 "2012-11-10T22:52:28Z")
At times like this, we should ask: What Would John Galt Do? And do the opposite. Generosity and forbearance, **Elvish**! I am planning to send along my boxed set of Maya Angelou’s Greatest Hits collection to help buoy **Bricker’s** spirits in this time of distress! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2976 "2012-11-11T00:44:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, there were. And so they were permissible, until we passed a law forbidding them - an amendment, in the case of poll taxes. 14th amendment: Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. So there is a penalty for Voter ID laws it just has never been enforced. > [@](#): > > That’s what people in a democracy do. That’s what “self-governed” means. Poll taxes are odious? I agree; so did three-fourths of the states, and the Constitution was amended to forbid them. So can Ohio, Michigan FLorida and Wisconsin pass laws saying that only Republicans can vote? How would the Democratic process overturn that law (assuming that the feds don’t step in)? > [@](#): > > Says you. I don’t agree. > > Why do you imagine you get to win this disagreement? Your argument seems to be that a difference of opinion means that both opinions are equally valid. They aren’t. > [@Bricker](#): > > I claim simply that there is sufficient voter fraud in play to affect an extremely close election, the extremely rare razor-thin elections that happen once every twenty or thirty years. So you are going to go after this 0.0004% problem and ignore the much larger problem of voter fraud in absentee ballots? > [@](#): > > The data I’m referring to is the overall turnout of minority voters despite the supposedly onerous restrictions imposed by Voter ID laws. Which ones were implemented this time around? > [@Bricker](#): > > Hint: we already have a system for doing just that. Only one of us opposes its use. Voting is a good way to determine which of two conflicting opinions should be borne out in society. You run into problems when the conflicting opinions are about who gets to vote. > [@Bricker](#): > > A study quoted earlier in this thread placed the incidence of improper voting – non-citizens or felons voting, for example – at 0.004%. That translates to about a hundred votes out of 2.5 million, if I haven’t dropped a decimal point. > > Does that strike you as at least plausible? You do realize that there are millions of greencard holders who have driver’s licenses and social security numbers right? Making a permanent resident or felon show their river’s license isn’t going to stop the problem of greencard holders and felons voting. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2977 "2012-11-11T01:17:42Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Your party is talking about amnesty Bricker. Does that make your stomach hurt? > > Also, you still haven’t addressed how voter confidence is served by making it much harder for many thousands of people to vote, in order to keep a car-full of people from fraudulent voting. > > Only a fool could think that is a sound idea. > > Are you a fool, Bricker? I don’t agree that only a fool could think Voter ID laws are a good idea. I have addressed why adding a tiny additional step for a small number of people, nationwide, doesn’t worry me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2978 "2012-11-11T01:20:56Z")
> [@](#): > > …isn’t going to stop the problem of greencard holders and felons voting With a lot of work and stringent regulation, it might be brought down to zero. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2979 "2012-11-11T01:22:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > 14th amendment: > So there is a penalty for Voter ID laws it just has never been enforced. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! No. Because the requirement to show ID enforce voting does not amount to a denial, as the Supreme Court settled in Crawford v. Marion County. Or are you now taking the position that there’s only one Supreme Court justice and his name is Damuri? > [@](#): > > Your argument seems to be that a difference of opinion means that both opinions are equally valid. They aren’t. And how shall we then determine which opinion controls the law? Notice how none of ou want to step up and answer that question? > [@](#): > > Voting is a good way to determine which of two conflicting opinions should be borne out in society. You run into problems when the conflicting opinions are about who gets to vote. Ok, so how do you resolve those problems? > [@](#): > > You do realize that there are millions of greencard holders who have driver’s licenses and social security numbers right? > > Making a permanent resident or felon show their river’s license isn’t going to stop the problem of greencard holders and felons voting. No, but it allows a prosecution after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/2980 "2012-11-11T01:24:42Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I haven’t read every post by everyone in this thread, but I note that you have avoided answering Kimstu’s cogent point, which, as far as I’m concerned, is the utter key to this entire thread: > > Slavery was, unquestionably, the law of the land for a long time. So were poll taxes, jim crow laws, lack-of-women’s-suffrage, and illegal consensual sodomy. All of those were, in their day, legal, enjoyed popular support, and had some rational justification. And so does prohibition of incest and child sexual abuse. And unlike the ones you mention, we still wish to keep those. So my question is: how can we determine which laws are outdated and should be removed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=148) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=150)