# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 155
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3081 "2012-11-27T15:11:07Z")
Refresh my memory. Is Gov. Crist currently facing any indictments? Or is there some other reason why we may brush aside his accusations? Run out of room, didja? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3082 "2012-11-27T15:38:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Refresh my memory. Is Gov. Crist currently facing any indictments? Or is there some other reason why we may brush aside his accusations? Run out of room, didja? No. I figured since the link was already posted, it would be clear: > [@](#): > > Crist is now at odds with the GOP, since abandoning the party to run for U.S. Senate as an independent in 2010. He is rumored to be planning another run for governor, as a Democrat. If he’s going to run again as a Democrat, that goes a bit beyond simply changing parties; he has every motive to discredit Republicans because they will be his rivals for his campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3083 "2012-11-27T15:42:57Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Greer is a conniving, thieving, fuckwad; pretty much the definition of being a Republican Party operative. If anyone would know just exactly how conniving and thieving those in his inner circle are, it would be him. > > I notice you completely disregarded the fact that the observation was echoed by Charlie Crist. > > But I guess you’re ready to impugn him, as well, since he realized just exactly what cowardly, conniving, thieving fuckwads his former Party was filled with, and dumped them for the better Party, right? > > You’re a real piece of shit, you know that, don’t you? So to you, the credibility of a person is entirely based on whether they are criticizing or praising Republicans. Greer is a conniving, thieving, fuckwad, but because he attacks the GOP, he speaks the truth as pure as that handed down on Sinai. If Crist denied the allegations, you’d disbelieve him; since he affirms them, he’s telling the truth. Your formula, then, is pretty easy to suss out: you start by declaring that the accusations are true, and then praise all whop repeat them and dismiss all who deny them. Well… saves thinking power for later use, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3084 "2012-11-27T16:00:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If he’s going to run again as a Democrat, that goes a bit beyond simply changing parties; he has every motive to discredit Republicans because they will be his rivals for his campaign. His discredited Republican colleagues gave him every motive to run as a Democrat. Guess it depends on which came first, the half-empty glass or the half-full one, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3085 "2012-11-27T16:53:03Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > His discredited Republican colleagues gave him every motive to run as a Democrat. Guess it depends on which came first, the half-empty glass or the half-full one, huh? Bricker’s more than happy to slather praise all over Zell Miller for abandoning Democrats to become a Republican, believing him to have seen the light of righteousness. A Republican who sees the light of the vile filth within their party — not mere ideological differences which may have changed over time, but actual dirty politics — must, _must_ have an ulterior motive of self-preservation or self-promotion. They couldn’t _possibly_ know the inner workings of their own former party. Nope. They’re just whores. That’s how it works in Brickworld. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3086 "2012-11-27T18:00:54Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > His discredited Republican colleagues gave him every motive to run as a Democrat. Guess it depends on which came first, the half-empty glass or the half-full one, huh? Sure. Of course, if your scenario were the case, I would expect him to have spoken out about this egregious actions first, and THEN announced his quitting the party to run as a Democrat. The order in which events actually happens doesn’t support your interpretation. In either event, though, the mere fact is that Greer has a huge motive to lie, and a huge problem with honesty if his indictment is to be believed. And the fact that Shayna offered up his accusations without mentioning that impediment shows that Shayna herself is not so concerned with the “whole truth” part of that famous oath. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3087 "2012-11-27T18:02:56Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Bricker’s more than happy to slather praise all over Zell Miller for abandoning Democrats to become a Republican, believing him to have seen the light of righteousness. A Republican who sees the light of the vile filth within their party — not mere ideological differences which may have changed over time, but actual dirty politics — must, _must_ have an ulterior motive of self-preservation or self-promotion. They couldn’t _possibly_ know the inner workings of their own former party. Nope. They’re just whores. > > That’s how it works in Brickworld. Not at all. I make room for the possibility that Greer’ honest soul was so offended by the machinations of his fellow Republicans that he renounced his party. I just think it was rather disingenuous of you not to mention his legal troubles at all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3088 "2012-11-27T18:43:55Z")
Ah, liberal hypocrisy, then? **Shayna** , unlike yourself, is not wholly honest and forthcoming, yes? So, she made it all up, did she? Well, no, those are news stories, that’s what they said, isn’t it? Seems to me your only real beef is with Gov Crist and Mr Greer, who are impugning the noble efforts of the Republican Party of Florida, who suggest some dark motive for all of these legal restrictions on voter registration and so forth. But you know better, yes? You know that the real motives of the Republican Party in this instance are noble and respectable, and have nothing whatever to do with some political advantage they are seeking to exploit. Well, some of them have sordid and disgraceful motives, you’ve already stipulated that. Some, but not all! Crucial distinction there. How many? Well, you wouldn’t hazard a guess on that, that would be speculation. Far be it from you to cast doubt without solid proof! So, some of them are looking to corrupt the political system of Florida to partisan advantage. But we must hold the rest to be innocent. Probably never even occurred to them that there was some partisan advantage to be gained. Never read anything in the papers about it, criticizing their actions. And for those who it did, why, they rushed to renounce, denounce, and condemn these sordid doings, did they? Now, that would be some strong stuff, there, Counselor! Just list out for us all the Florida Republicans who sternly rebuked those in their ranks who do not measure up to the pristine standards! Why, there must be dozens! Several! One? Have one, by any chance? Got a nickel says you don’t. But wait, you don’t even need one, do you? The miracle of valid neutral justification, like transubstantiation, renders the sordid and base into solid virtue! So their corrupt motives don’t count, because the miracle renders them moot! Unlike Crist and Greer, who do not have the benefit of the miracle. Their base motives remain just as they are! And the League of Women Voters, for shame! Shame, I say! What with all their false accusations and lies about how difficult their voter registration drives would become! I gasp with horror at their base slander of noble and virtuous men like Gov Skeletor! I did not notice at what point they became a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democrat Party, sprewing foul lies about Republicans. Well, some Republicans, according to you, but not all! Nosir! The greater majority are wholly virtuous, but never quite got around to saying anything about it, being so busy and all. Unless I’m wrong, and they did speak out against it! Dozens of them? Several? One? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3089 "2012-11-27T18:50:42Z")
And surely “political consultant” Wayne Bertsch and the other, unnamed one (both listed in the original Palm Beach Press story) must have skeletons in their closets to explain their supporting these accusations of voter suppression ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3090 "2012-11-27T18:56:23Z")
_[Leave Bricker alone!](http://i.imgur.com/VTl9j.jpg)_ We’re best friends now, so I must jump to his aid. Of course he did suggest that Christ should have decried Florida’s voter suppression fully two years before it happened, in order to have any credibility. God, it’s hard to take him seriously… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3091 "2012-11-27T18:57:24Z")
> [@](#): > > …must have skeletons in their closets to explain their supporting these accusations of voter suppression Either that or a conscience. Dare we hope? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3092 "2012-11-27T18:59:57Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > _[Leave Bricker alone!](http://i.imgur.com/VTl9j.jpg)_ We’re best friends now, so I must jump to his aid. From “cumpig” to kumbaya in the span of one page? You’re a fickle bitch aren’t you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3093 "2012-11-27T19:03:45Z")
That’s what the girls at the pool hall say, ol’ **Lobo** is easy, just hint that you may have a good sized Gherkin in a jar, and… Oh, wait. “Fickle”. With an “F”. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3094 "2012-11-27T19:20:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. I make room for the possibility that Greer’ honest soul was so offended by the machinations of his fellow Republicans that he renounced his party. No you don’t, you goddamn liar. > [@Bricker](#): > > I just think it was rather disingenuous of you not to mention his legal troubles at all. Oh fuck that noise. I didn’t offer up Greer as a witness, I offered up a NEWS ARTICLE from a local Florida newspaper that quoted multiple sources, only one of whom was Greer. That you expected _me_ to provide a caveat that the source of the story didn’t even think relevant enough to include in their story is _absurd_ on its face. What’s disingenuous here is you glomming onto only one source instead of accepting the fullness of the evidence. But I’ve come to expect nothing better of you, so I’m not at all surprised. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > And surely “political consultant” Wayne Bertsch and the other, unnamed one (both listed in the original Palm Beach Press story) must have skeletons in their closets to explain their supporting these accusations of voter suppression No, no; they don’t exist. They’re irrelevant. Meaningless. Rick can’t trot out on his high horse against them so they’re not to be discussed. Move along; nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3095 "2012-11-27T19:28:33Z")
I think you’re all missing out on an important point about efforts to install Voter ID quickly within a short time so that all voters are unlikely to actually get ID: Is it legal? More to the point, has anyone in the pro-voter ID crowd been caught, accused, convicted, sentenced and exhausted all possible appeals? If not, then it is clearly the right thing to do. As long as you’re not actually convicted and sentenced, then you are morally right in what you do. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3096 "2012-11-27T19:32:19Z")
Wait, did someone say _pickle_? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3097 "2012-11-28T10:27:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What’s the fallacy? > > See, to me – and I know this is crazy talk to persons such as yourself – someone who’s in the middle of a criminal trial for embezzlement from his former bosses has a motive to talk bad about his former bosses. So, today you’re wearing your logic puzzler hat. Fine. Start by answering this question: _Does this defense (criminal defendants making up lies) work when only one of the alleged liars is a criminal defendant?_ (Or, in your scenario are Crist et all co-conspirators soon to be indicted?) > [@Bricker](#): > > So to you … Greer is a conniving, thieving, fuckwad, but because he attacks the GOP, he speaks the truth as pure as that handed down on Sinai… That Greer is a fuckwad has logically been established. Now we’re just negotiating his [del]price[/del] party affiliation. You’re very good at _demonstrating_ the logic fallacy I mentioned earlier and asked help naming. In the absence of any other suggestion, I’ve decided to name the fallacy     _ **the Brickturd** _ > [@Bricker](#): > > Well… saves thinking power for later use, I guess. Speaking to yourself again, is it? We’re not holding our breaths. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3098 "2012-11-28T14:58:28Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > No you don’t, you goddamn liar. Oh fuck that noise. I didn’t offer up Greer as a witness, I offered up a NEWS ARTICLE from a local Florida newspaper that quoted multiple sources, only one of whom was Greer. That you expected _me_ to provide a caveat that the source of the story didn’t even think relevant enough to include in their story is _absurd_ on its face. That the author of the story is just as biased as you are is not absurd on its face – in fact, it’s likely the truth. Well, no. I take that back. That the author of the story is biased enough to omit this key fact is the truth. Few are as biased as you. > [@](#): > > What’s disingenuous here is you glomming onto only one source instead of accepting the fullness of the evidence. But I’ve come to expect nothing better of you, so I’m not at all surprised. No, no; they don’t exist. They’re irrelevant. Meaningless. Rick can’t trot out on his high horse against them so they’re not to be discussed. Move along; nothing to see here. What fullness of the evidence? You offer up two people, one of whom intends to run against Republicans and one of whom is in a criminal trial in which his acquittal depends on discrediting Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3099 "2012-11-28T14:59:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So, today you’re wearing your logic puzzler hat. Fine. Start by answering this question: > _Does this defense (criminal defendants making up lies) work when only one of the alleged liars is a criminal defendant?_ (Or, in your scenario are Crist et all co-conspirators soon to be indicted?) That’s not quite the defense. The defense is: each speaker has a cognizable and important motive to lie. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3100 "2012-11-28T16:00:19Z")
Oh. So the “real” reason has nothing to do with political advantage? Is that your premise, here? That appears to be their main point, so it seems safe to assume that is what you think they are lying about. What is, then, the “real” purpose, here? How does lessening the opportunity to vote perform some needful function? When the League of Women Voters say that the new voter registration restrictions hamper their legitimate voter registration efforts, are they lying too? Any idea why? In what way does restricting early voting enhance the legitimacy of voting? In what way does it enhance “voter confidence”? If you were talking to someone who just spent six hours waiting to vote, how would you explain to them how necessary their sacrifice is? Have you any answers to these questions, or are you content to suggest that they may well be lying, and hope for an opportunity to change the subject? You have already stipulated that “some” Republicans have sordid motives here, what about the rest? How have they expressed their firm opposition to such un-American tactics? By voting “yes”, but quietly and without enthusiasm? They must have said something that convinces you of their sincerity and _boney Fidos._ Because a thinking man like yourself would not reflexively approve anything with an ® attached. Well, OK, we’re listening. Tell us what that was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=154) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=156)