# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 159
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3161 "2013-02-10T17:13:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So, yes-or-no, is the ACLU comment essentially correct? Cat got your tongue? Er, yes, it looks correct to me. Did you miss the part in my post where I said that, regardless of whether there’s any voter fraud, enabling these people to get free ID that, for whatever reason, they don’t already have is a good thing? I assume you are aware that the court decisions say the ID must be free (else it’s a violation of Poll Tax laws), and that the laws can’t be active until a reasonable amount of time has passed for people to get their ID? Was that the original intention of these schemes? Probably not, but, as **Bricker** has often, and correctly, pointed out, the intention is irrelevant. If properly handled by the Democrats, this scheme could easily _boost_ Democratic turnout, as voters will be aware of these freely available IDs, and encouraged by their party to pick them up (you will encourage this, yes?), and encouraged to vote at the same time. Of course, the Democrats will probably manage to fuck it up, but it should be an opportunity for them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3162 "2013-02-10T17:57:57Z")
First off, intent is not irrelevant, being as that intent is the very substance of this thread. Did you notice how prominently the words “voter suppression” figure? Scroll up if you have any problem. Second, free and valid ID, easily obtained and freely available is a pretty good idea. What is troubling is the timing and execution, which warps a pretty good idea into a nasty little legalistic trick. And, of course, the Republican intention here casts a baleful light on other interesting innovations they would like to pursue. Like schemes to stack the electoral college methodology to ensure that the popular vote is discounted in their favor. Now, if you would like to advance the notion that the Republican motives here are as pure as the driven snow, that they only hope to help out the poor and disadvantaged, so that they might more easily vote against them, you are certainly free to do so. The likeliest responses will be scorn, derision and snark, but hey! freak freely! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3163 "2013-02-10T18:19:17Z")
I’d also like to again remind Dopers that in the thread-title _I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors_ “ID-demanding” is just an adjective, and the GOP vote-suppressors are to be Pitted for other immoral ploys, whether they demand ID or not. By diverting attention to seemingly plausible ID requirements, **Brickhead** and his ilk divert attention from differential infrastructure by alignment (i.e., longer lines at Democrat precincts), improper voter list purging, [voter intimidation](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/true-vote-intimidating-minority-voters-polls/story?id=17618823), etc., etc. To save a round, we can stipulate **Brickhead** ’s pseudo-Nietzschean response: _Whatever might be legal, however disgusting, is mandatory_. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3164 "2013-02-10T18:27:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > First off, intent is not irrelevant, being as that intent is the very substance of this thread. Did you notice how prominently the words “voter suppression” figure? Scroll up if you have any problem. Nope, it’s still irrelevant. If the intention is voter suppression, and it’s legal, they can do it. Of course, the courts have found that it is _not_ legal to do that, which is why the ID must be free, and the timing must be such that people have time to get them, I think it was 2 years but I could be mistaken there. You have an oddly idealistic view of politics. > [@](#): > > Second, free and valid ID, easily obtained and freely available is a pretty good idea. What is troubling is the timing and execution, which warps a pretty good idea into a nasty little legalistic trick. And, of course, the Republican intention here casts a baleful light on other interesting innovations they would like to pursue. Like schemes to stack the electoral college methodology to ensure that the popular vote is discounted in their favor. I’ve already answered the first part of this. To answer the second part, that’s politics. The thing is, the rules are the same for everyone, so anything one side can use to their advantage the other can too. I’ve already laid out how this could happen with voter ID laws. > [@](#): > > Now, if you would like to advance the notion that the Republican motives here are as pure as the driven snow, that they only hope to help out the poor and disadvantaged, so that they might more easily vote against them, you are certainly free to do so. The likeliest responses will be scorn, derision and snark, but hey! freak freely! What part of “irrelevant” don’t you understand? The Republican’s aim in doing this is to win elections, the same as the Democrats’ aim in opposing it. That tells you nothing about the legality of the action. If you would rather have your party whine about things not being fair than to play by the rules as they are, whether you like the rules or not, and play to win, you will end up losing. Hell, the Democrats have held the Presidency and, for some of that time, both houses, and still kept losing because they play to lose. Look, no politician, or at least none that will be successful, gives a shit about what the people want. They may care about what they _need_, or they may just care about power. But again, that’s irrelevant. It’s what they do that matters, nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3165 "2013-02-10T18:44:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Look, no politician, or at least none that will be successful, gives a shit about what the people want. I pity the people who believe this. What may be true of many or even most, need not be true of all. And I despise the people who prattle this to defend the repugnant abuses of Republican slime. Every foul deed is defended with _“Natter natter natter. Your side would have done it too, if you’d been smart enough!”_ This loathsome thinking is part of the problem, not its solution. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3166 "2013-02-10T19:31:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > First off, intent is not irrelevant, being as that intent is the very substance of this thread. Did you notice how prominently the words “voter suppression” figure? Scroll up if you have any problem. > > Second, free and valid ID, easily obtained and freely available is a pretty good idea. What is troubling is the timing and execution, which warps a pretty good idea into a nasty little legalistic trick. And, of course, the Republican intention here casts a baleful light on other interesting innovations they would like to pursue. Like schemes to stack the electoral college methodology to ensure that the popular vote is discounted in their favor. > > Now, if you would like to advance the notion that the Republican motives here are as pure as the driven snow, that they only hope to help out the poor and disadvantaged, so that they might more easily vote against them, you are certainly free to do so. The likeliest responses will be scorn, derision and snark, but hey! freak freely! Not to derail the thread but to point out some hypocrisy on both sides of two arguments. In the voter fraud argument, Bricker justifies these voter ID laws despite the fact that in person voter fraud is exceedingly rare and whatever voter fraud does exist tends to come occur with absentee ballots. Which leads you to wonder why there is so much focus on in person voter fraud when someone who wishes to engage in voter fraud can merely switch to absentee ballots and frankly get a lot more bang for the buck. It makes you wonder if the real objective of the Voter ID law really isn’t something else, something that might not stand up in court. In the gun control argument, Bricker correctly points out that assault weapons are responsible for a vanishingly small number of gun murders and that handguns are actually responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun violence. Which leads you to wonder why there is so much focus on assault weapons when someone who wishes to go on a rampage can be just as effective with handguns (Virginia Tech), shotguns (Columbine) and rifles (clocktower sniper) as you can with assault rifles. It makes you wonder if the real objective of the AWB isn’t really something else, something that might not sand up in court. Change a few words in each paragraph and replace Bricker’s name with some of the gun control nuts on this board and you get the same result. I’m merely picking on Bricker because beating up on the conservative is likely to get this idea a warmer reception. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3167 "2013-02-10T19:51:39Z")
**Steophan** , you really need to go back and read the thread. Intent, as the Counselor so gleefully pointed out, is indeed irrelevant for assessing the strict legality of a law. And so these laws can be legal despite nefarious intent, as long as some possibility of other intent or interpretation of intent is possible. Neener, neener. But for the purposes of this Pit thread, intent is exactly the point. Scroll up to the top of page and re-read the title. You have repeated several times what seems to be your attempt at absolving these laws from guilt by telling us that the IDs are free, and implementation of the laws was phased in. Perhaps though the true intent becomes a bit more clear when we recall that most of the original versions of these laws did in fact require a fee. Only when this was struck down as an unconstitutional poll tax were the IDs made free. And further, the same sort of thing occurred with speed of implementation. The laws proposed were drafted to take effect before the 2012 election. (Well, I think there may have been a single one passed several years before. This is my cover-my-ass statement, else friend Counselor will rush in to declare “Not ALL were… \”) And it took court challenges to defer implementation of some, but not all, of these laws. The apparent intent, at least the intent apparent to all us libruls, was to influence the 2012 elections, especially the presidential election. Gosh, wasn’t there even a pol who said something to the effect that “these laws” would guarantee a certain state for Romney? I’m sure I’m not dreaming this up. To remain on point, please tell us, not what happy rainbows-and-unicorns unintended consequences may someday emerge from these laws, but rather, why you think we have misunderstood the intent for which they were passed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3168 "2013-02-10T19:58:49Z")
That’s not quite fair. He has clearly stated that he is a cynic devoid of any principles worthy of the name. Its not fair to criticize a man’s values when he hasn’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3169 "2013-02-10T20:54:02Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > To remain on point, please tell us, not what happy rainbows-and-unicorns unintended consequences may someday emerge from these laws, but rather, why you think we have misunderstood the intent for which they were passed. I don’t think you’ve misunderstood the reasons for these laws being passed. I think you are wrong that the intention matters. I’ve never claimed the intentions of the Republicans was to benefit poor and/or minority voters. I’m saying that these laws will in fact do so, because I believe (from experience) that life is easier with ID. I would vote for a politician I believed would do the things I wanted him to do, regardless of his intentions. For example, if I believed that a politician who is acting solely to benefit the rich would, in fact, benefit me despite the fact that I’m far from rich, I’d be happy to vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3170 "2013-02-10T20:58:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That’s not quite fair. He has clearly stated that he is a cynic devoid of any principles worthy of the name. Its not fair to criticize a man’s values when he hasn’t any. Oh, I’m definitely a cynic. I have strong principles, though, just possibly not ones you’d agree with. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone truly without principles, indeed I’m not even sure what that would mean. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3171 "2013-02-10T22:01:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t think you’ve misunderstood the reasons for these laws being passed. I think you are wrong that the intention matters. I’ve never claimed the intentions of the Republicans was to benefit poor and/or minority voters. I’m saying that these laws will in fact do so, because I believe (from experience) that life is easier with ID. > > I would vote for a politician I believed would do the things I wanted him to do, regardless of his intentions. For example, if I believed that a politician who is acting solely to benefit the rich would, in fact, benefit me despite the fact that I’m far from rich, I’d be happy to vote for him. Ahh, so no harm, no foul, despite the nefarious intent! Rainbows and unicorns will be the result, so no point in Pitting the bastards who intended exactly the opposite. I get it now. Too bad we didn’t have that foresight in 2011. Or that complacency. Why, we might not have fought over, or exposed, these laws! Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3172 "2013-02-10T22:19:38Z")
I have met very few actual cynics, but they all described themselves as hard-headed realists. The values here are centered around a social and political agreement, based on this crazy ass experiment we’ve been conducting the past couple centuries. We can’t prove a word of it, we just pawn it off with a platitude, that we hold these truths to be self-evident. I know full well that my opinion is worth far more than my neighbor’s opinion, because his information pool is too shallow to drown a mouse. But I have agreed to pretend otherwise, to pledge my allegiance to impossible ideals and entered into a contract with my fellow citizens. I am impatient with their reluctance to adopt my progressive agenda and positively obstreperous with those who would hinder it. But that commitment demands that I hold absurd and ignorant opinions to be equal to my own, their vote is as valid as mine. When I placed my grubby little hand over my shriveled little heart in first grade, I pledged my allegiance, without the slightest idea what I was letting myself in for. But now I know, and I still hold that pledge. Its a gift we give one to another, that we are equal in the eyes of justice, that we each have value and worth, and the man who denies that worth is not truly American. Is that “oddly idealistic”? Yes, probably, it is also a major pain in the butt. As am I. In that cause I argue, I beseech, I cajole, I snark. But here’s the thing: against all odds, and all enemies, with agonizing slowness and endless setbacks…we are winning. But so slow, so _slow_! So, if you can’t lead and won’t follow, could you at least get out of the way? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3173 "2013-02-11T02:57:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’d also like to again remind Dopers that in the thread-title > _I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors_ > “ID-demanding” is just an adjective, and the GOP vote-suppressors are to be Pitted for other immoral ploys, whether they demand ID or not. > > By diverting attention to seemingly plausible ID requirements, **Brickhead** and his ilk divert attention from differential infrastructure by alignment (i.e., longer lines at Democrat precincts), improper voter list purging, [voter intimidation](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/true-vote-intimidating-minority-voters-polls/story?id=17618823), etc., etc. True. On reflection, I really should have left “ID-demanding” out of the thread title – it was simply the most prominently visible aspect of the issue at the time. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3174 "2013-02-11T04:48:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Those same people are now crowing that a Republican is guilty of voter fraud Can you point out even one person in this thread who is so crowing? Much less two, as would be required for your use of the word “people” to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3175 "2013-02-11T14:51:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, people are claiming voter fraud is _possible_, and therefore one cannot have sufficient faith in the results of elections. > > A bunch of lefties came in and claimed that no, if it were happening there would be proof, and the fact that there were very few convictions _proved_ it wasn’t happening. Those same people are now crowing that a Republican is guilty of voter fraud, despite there being no evidence. They are either idiots, hypocrites, or both. Exactly correct. Which of course guarantees that liberal eyes will glaze over and they will be unable to read and understand the words. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3176 "2013-02-11T14:57:32Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So yes, if there were another thread as long as this thread in which significant portions of the SDMB liberal hive mind came to a consensus that Ann Coulter either had or had not committed voter fraud, and therefore (something), there would be at least SOME justification for you to come in and compare the reasoning in that thread to the reasoning in this thread and try to draw conclusions. But that’s not at all what happened. This claim, and the preceding snipped paragraphs, completely ignores the tone of the posts discussing Coulter’s situation. Nowhere was there this calm, dispassionate dissection of the burden of proof related to her guilt. Instead, the tone of implication of the responders was very heavily slanted towards Coulter guilt. > [@](#): > > I believe that the primary argument people have been making (and I can’t claim to speak for EVERY argument that anyone EVER made) was a burden of proof one. You, and the people on your side, are claiming that there is lots of voter fraud, and using that to justify your voter ID laws. So YOU should be the ones to provide the evidence. I’d argue that a vanishingly small number of voter fraud convictions is evidence for our side, but not proof. Ann Coulter not being convicted of voter fraud is evidence that she did not commit voter fraud, but not proof. And you miscast the burden in this argument – in order to pass the laws, perhaps, you’d be correct. But once the law is passed, the burden shifts to those who wish the law overturned by the courts – you and your ilk. A law passed by the legislature and signed by the governor enjoys the presumption of regularity and constitutionality, and it’s a strong presumption. It’s up to you to defeat that presumption. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3177 "2013-02-11T18:02:10Z")
Of late, several Republicans have come out to denounce, renounce and condemn the political skulduggery that their party (got ilk?) has been guilty of. I want to take this moment to commend them for their integrity, honesty, and commitment to justice, that they rise above their partisan concerns to stand for a higher cause. Bravo, gentlepersons, bravo! It is an honor to have such ethical and honest opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3178 "2013-02-11T18:37:48Z")
1. Voter fraud is possible, and may happen, but in such low numbers as to be inconsequential. Certain Republicans have hollered from the rooftops about voter fraud, in order for the public to become concerned. They then try to use this concern to pass laws that on the face seem to be against the (rare, inconsequential) voter fraud, but in fact are intended to surpress the votes of those voting for the other party. 2. When (rare) voter fraud is exposed, it sometimes turns out to have been done by a Republican. This is freakin’ hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3179 "2013-02-11T18:39:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And of course Lobo makes posts like this, leading the casual reader to assume that there’s only been one instance of an ACORN worker committing criminal acts connected to voter registration and getting convicted for same. > > But of course, there are more. Right, Oh Purveyor Of The Truth? > [@Skip](#): > > If there are it probably doesn’t matter. It has the same effect on elections as almost any other case of voter registration fraud. > > None. Skip is correct. The voter registration fraud was committed by ACORN’s contractors so they could get more names. Those names lead to zero fraudulent votes. Turning in dodgy names to the registration rolls isn’t even slightly related to voter fraud. But lying, wretched men like yourself keep bringing it up, because it sounds similar, because you want to win and don’t care if it’s because of misleading bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3180 "2013-02-11T18:46:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Skip is correct. > > The voter registration fraud was committed by ACORN’s contractors so they could get more names. Those names lead to zero fraudulent votes. How do you know? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=158) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=160)