# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 171
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3401 "2013-10-25T23:50:42Z")
In fairness, **Bricker** has mostly said we need voter ID laws to combat the _perception_ that fraud is occurring, not to combat actual fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3402 "2013-10-26T00:04:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In fairness, **Bricker** has mostly said we need voter ID laws to combat the _perception_ that fraud is occurring, not to combat actual fraud. By that logic, we should strengthen the Voting Rights Act to combat the perception that voters are being disenfranchised. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3403 "2013-10-26T00:38:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In fairness, **Bricker** has mostly said we need voter ID laws to combat the _perception_ that fraud is occurring, not to combat actual fraud. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > By that logic, we should strengthen the Voting Rights Act to combat the perception that voters are being disenfranchised. This is it in a nutshell. According to Bricker, the Voter ID act stuff was critical to combat the perception that something was occurring (interestingly, that something was actually shown to be vanishingly rare). However, given the perception (along with significant actual evidence) that the Voter ID laws are having a negative effect on numbers of people well in excess of any claimed voter fraud, well…tough shit. It’s the opposite of 100 guilty go free to ensure that 1 innocent is not imprisoned. Bricker, former PD, is advocating a guilty-until-proven-innocent system. The irony, it burns… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3404 "2013-10-28T17:39:26Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > This is it in a nutshell. According to Bricker, the Voter ID act stuff was critical to combat the perception that something was occurring (interestingly, that something was actually shown to be vanishingly rare). However, given the perception (along with significant actual evidence) that the Voter ID laws are having a negative effect on numbers of people well in excess of any claimed voter fraud, well…tough shit. > > It’s the opposite of 100 guilty go free to ensure that 1 innocent is not imprisoned. > > Bricker, former PD, is advocating a guilty-until-proven-innocent system. The irony, it burns… Nothing ironic about it. There is a difference between the criminal law and the voting requirements. There is a difference between asking someone to prove their identity by means of a free photo ID and locking them in prison. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3405 "2013-10-28T17:47:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nothing ironic about it. There is a difference between the criminal law and the voting requirements. There is a difference between asking someone to prove their identity by means of a free photo ID and locking them in prison. The difference is that the latter directly harms a single person and the former indirectly harms American democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3406 "2013-10-28T18:02:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The difference is that the latter directly harms a single person and the former indirectly harms American democracy. It’s clear you think this. It’s not correct, of course. When the Republicans in Congress sought to derail Obamacare, you and your ilk were indignant: how could they dare try to upend an initiative that had the support of the legislature, the approval of the courts, and a general majority of the public’s approval? Now we discuss a measure that has broader public support, more solid legislative approval, and the court’s approval as well, but your fealty to those kinds of metrics vanishes. How unsurprising. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3407 "2013-10-28T18:07:37Z")
Call me crazy, but I support laws that strive to ensure that all the people have access to health care over laws written with the intent of subverting democracy and giving electoral advantage to one party. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3408 "2013-10-28T18:14:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Call me crazy, but I support laws that strive to ensure that all the people have access to health care over laws written with the intent of subverting democracy and giving electoral advantage to one party. And I favor laws that will assist the confidence of the electorate in close elections by assuring them that the votes cast were legitimate ones. That’s not a subversion of democracy – that’s an expression of it. Subverting representative democracy would be taking a law passed by the representatives and signed by the executive, and scuttling it, which is precisely what you seek to do. “Democracy,” does not mean that you and your buddies get to run things. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3409 "2013-10-28T18:25:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I favor laws that will assist the confidence of the electorate in close elections by assuring them that the votes cast were legitimate ones. Evading the point, increasing artlessly. The issue is the votes that were _prevented from being cast_. And I’m sure \*\*Bricker \*\*knows that; he simply fails to understand that the rest of us do, too. > [@](#): > > That’s not a subversion of democracy – that’s an expression of it. False. It is \*exactly \*a subversion of democracy. > [@](#): > > “Democracy,” does not mean that you and your buddies get to run things. Written with a straight face, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3410 "2013-10-28T18:25:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I favor laws that will assist the confidence of the electorate in close elections by assuring them that the votes cast were legitimate ones. That’s not a subversion of democracy – that’s an expression of it. Laws that in theory assure that legitimacy of votes cast but in application result in widespread practical disenfranchisement of legitimate voters can hardly be said to “assist the confidence of the electorate”, except to the extent it assists the confidence of that portion of the electorate that benefits from the disenfranchisement of the other portion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3411 "2013-10-28T19:46:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nothing ironic about it. There is a difference between the criminal law and the voting requirements. There is a difference between asking someone to prove their identity by means of a free photo ID and locking them in prison. So is everyone in every venue going to asked to show this ID? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3412 "2013-10-28T20:02:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s clear you think this. > > It’s not correct, of course. > > When the Republicans in Congress sought to derail Obamacare, you and your ilk were indignant: how could they dare try to upend an initiative that had the support of the legislature, the approval of the courts, and a general majority of the public’s approval? > > Now we discuss a measure that has broader public support, more solid legislative approval, and the court’s approval as well, but your fealty to those kinds of metrics vanishes. > > How unsurprising. The analogy does not hold until Dems shut down the government over voting rights. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3413 "2013-10-28T20:07:13Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Laws that in theory assure that legitimacy of votes cast but in application result in widespread practical disenfranchisement of legitimate voters can hardly be said to “assist the confidence of the electorate”, except to the extent it assists the confidence of that portion of the electorate that benefits from the disenfranchisement of the other portion. I don’t agree that this is the actual, observed, practical effect. And even if it were, it’s akin to the voodoo curse argument: if I announced that i planned to place a voodoo curse on anyone who voted Democratic, and the actual, observable result was that Democratic votes were lost… tough shit. The reason is, of course, that it’s not objectively reasonable to fail to vote out of a fear of a voodoo curse, and even if voters do that, I don’t agree society should regard it as an ill that needs correcting by government action. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3414 "2013-10-28T20:09:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The analogy does not hold until Dems shut down the government over voting rights. Someday, perhaps, you will learn that analogies are not meant to replicate each and every facet of their compared situation. And let’s face it: if the Dems did shut down the government over the photo ID laws, you’d be cheering them, just like you cheered when the Democrats hid out in a neighboring state to deny a quorum to the state legislature. Because shutting down the legislative process is a terrible thing, unless it’s to help your causes. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3415 "2013-10-28T20:29:56Z")
My, aren’t WE a Bitter Betty! Finally coming to realize the depths of absurdity you have to dive down to in order to defend your party, **Bricker**? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3416 "2013-10-28T20:36:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So is everyone in every venue going to asked to show this ID? I feel confident that they will be able to use their good judgement as to who they will ask to show an ID. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3417 "2013-10-28T20:38:36Z")
Well, Bricker ignored my question, so I’ll answer it on his behalf: Bryan: So is everyone in every venue going to asked to show this ID? Bricker, probably: Obviously not, but legislation makes no distinction, so it legally _could_ occur. Bryan, probably: Well, you see it’s the issue of selective enforcement that invites concern, since systematic disenfranchisement efforts based on race have occurred in various U.S. states within living memory, and currently we hear the occasional gaffe where a politician admits that regardless of the claims made about the need for voter regulation, the goal is to discourage voters who by all indication would tend to support the opposing party. Even asking for ID consistently at one polling station slows the voting process down, if there’s no matching effort to expand voting hours and/or make the process easier and more efficient. Isn’t the opposite happening, in fact, early voting being cut in some places and such? Bricker, probably: It doesn’t matter, it’s within the power of the various legislatures to do so as long as they can establish the rational basis link to voter confidence. Bryan, probably: I know. They’re just bags of shit for their disingenuity and you’re a bag of shit for yours. Annnnd… scene. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3418 "2013-10-28T20:42:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, Bricker ignored my question, so I’ll answer it on his behalf: > > Bryan: So is everyone in every venue going to asked to show this ID? For voting? Yes. The legislation requires that every voter show ID. > [@](#): > > Bryan, probably: Well, you see it’s the issue of selective enforcement that invites concern, since systematic disenfranchisement efforts based on race have occurred in various U.S. states within living memory, and currently we hear the occasional gaffe where a politician admits that regardless of the claims made about the need for voter regulation, the goal is to discourage voters who by all indication would tend to support the opposing party. Even asking for ID consistently at one polling station slows the voting process down, if there’s no matching effort to expand voting hours and/or make the process easier and more efficient. Isn’t the opposite happening, in fact, early voting being cut in some places and such? Great – so since there won’t be any selective enforcement, you’re on board. Wonderful news. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3419 "2013-10-28T20:43:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For voting? Yes. The legislation requires that every voter show ID. > > Great – so since there won’t be any selective enforcement, you’re on board. Wonderful news. My GOODNESS, you are amazingly naive for a lawyer… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3420 "2013-10-28T20:45:01Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I feel confident that they will be able to use their good judgement as to who they will ask to show an ID. Why would you feel confident on this point, when the plain language of the law says otherwise? Apparently you disfavor some imaginary law that mandates only distrusted minorities show ID, while trusted white-skinned humans are given a free pass (and probably some canapes as well, or a nice mulled cider). OK, i disfavor that one too. When it’s proposed, i’ll speak against it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=170) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=172)