# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 172
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3421 "2013-10-28T20:45:32Z")
The humans call it “sarcasm”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3422 "2013-10-28T20:45:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For voting? Yes. The legislation requires that every voter show ID. > > Great – so since there won’t be any selective enforcement, you’re on board. Wonderful news. Great: I look forward to all those white Republican voters having adequate time to sing the praises of their newfound confidence while waiting for hours at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3423 "2013-10-28T20:46:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > My GOODNESS, you are amazingly naive for a lawyer… Am I? The photo ID law has been in effect in Indiana for many years. Can you cite examples of this selective enforcement there? Can you cite them anywhere? Or are you just using your imagination and asking that readers accept it as fact? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3424 "2013-10-28T20:48:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Great: I look forward to all those white Republican voters having adequate time to sing the praises of their newfound confidence while waiting for hours at the polls. Again: this law has been in effect for nearly ten years in Indiana. So far as I am aware, no problems along those lines came to pass. What explanation have you for this rebuttal of your idea? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3425 "2013-10-28T21:04:02Z")
Heck, photo ID is a requirement (at least on paper, less so in practice) at Canadian elections. I got a notice just last week about an upcoming municipal election and the types of identification I should have handy. The point being that we’re okay with that because there’s no justified perception here that somebody is actively seeking to keep us from voting based on how we’re likely to vote. You say Indiana has had no problems? Sure, I believe you with all the confidence of lazy indifference. Let’s see what Florida and Texas and Mississippi and Kansas and Arizona and Alabama and the Carolinas do, wot? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3426 "2013-10-28T21:21:19Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > My GOODNESS, you are amazingly naive for a lawyer… I think \*disingenuous \*is a better description. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3427 "2013-10-28T21:51:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree that this is the actual, observed, practical effect. Funny, because a number of Republicans seem to think it will be. And even it it weren’t, I don’t agree that these laws “increase confidence”. How are you quantifying confidence? Is there a particular unit of measure? And if these laws aren’t shown to increase confidence overall, why pass them? > [@](#): > > And even if it were, it’s akin to the voodoo curse argument: if I announced that i planned to place a voodoo curse on anyone who voted Democratic, and the actual, observable result was that Democratic votes were lost… tough shit. > > The reason is, of course, that it’s not objectively reasonable to fail to vote out of a fear of a voodoo curse, and even if voters do that, I don’t agree society should regard it as an ill that needs correcting by government action. You are absolutely right…if we were talking about voodoo curses and not the practice of state legislatures specifically requiring forms of ID that a particular demographic is unlikely to hold and will find difficult to obtain. Because one of those things is not like the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3428 "2013-10-28T21:54:24Z")
Yeah, voodoo practitioners are more upfront about their goals. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3429 "2013-10-28T22:17:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, photo ID is a requirement (at least on paper, less so in practice) at Canadian elections. I got a notice just last week about an upcoming municipal election and the types of identification I should have handy. The point being that we’re okay with that because there’s no justified perception here that somebody is actively seeking to keep us from voting based on how we’re likely to vote. Plus, and I’m sure I’ve posted this before, Canada’s ID requirements are [pretty easy to meet](http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e). A lot of the US ones I see people complaining about are much stricter. Elections Canada **wants** everyone to vote. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3430 "2013-10-28T23:31:36Z")
We have a very similar situation here in Baja Canada AKA the People’s Republic of Minnesota. Of course, pretty much everywhere you go, people are fretting and worrying about the lack of voter confidence. > [@](#): > > …The reason is, of course, that it’s not objectively reasonable to fail to vote out of a fear of a voodoo curse, and even if voters do that, I don’t agree society should regard it as an ill that needs correcting by government action. Neither is it “objectively reasonable” to use government action to correct a problem that does not exist by any practical measure. Even more so, it is politically immoral in an egalitarian democracy to use the law to secure undeserved political advantage. Whether it would be better if that crime were committed under the auspices of an actual problem being solved is a question for philosophers and Jesuits. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3431 "2013-10-28T23:38:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, photo ID is a requirement (at least on paper, less so in practice) at Canadian elections. I got a notice just last week about an upcoming municipal election and the types of identification I should have handy. The point being that we’re okay with that because there’s no justified perception here that somebody is actively seeking to keep us from voting based on how we’re likely to vote. You say Indiana has had no problems? Sure, I believe you with all the confidence of lazy indifference. Let’s see what Florida and Texas and Mississippi and Kansas and Arizona and Alabama and the Carolinas do, wot? Sure. And if it should happen that, as you predict, the requirement is applied only to minorities, or only in Democratic strongholds, or any way other than universally, then I’ll certainly agree with you and call for the law’s repeal. But I am absolutely certain that if no such problems emerge, you won’t change your stance a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3432 "2013-10-28T23:42:02Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You are absolutely right…if we were talking about voodoo curses and not the practice of state legislatures specifically requiring forms of ID that a particular demographic is unlikely to hold and will find difficult to obtain. Because one of those things is not like the other. Of course, that’s complete bullshit – not even the most stringent ID requirement law, interpreted by the most alarmist media commentator, has ever suggested that mainstream demographic members are “unlikely” to hold those IDs. At most, they have raised the concern that particular demographics are _less_ likely than others to hold them. But no recognized, tracked demographic I’ve ever heard is actually unlikely – that is, more likely than not to NOT – have photo ID. Just another bullshit claim, by people who can’t win the argument by telling the truth. What amazes me is not only the bullshit, but the utter lack of shame – and of course the usual complete inability to admit the false claim even existed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3433 "2013-10-29T00:07:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I favor laws that will assist the confidence of the electorate in close elections by assuring them that the votes cast were legitimate ones. That’s not a subversion of democracy – that’s an expression of it. Having conclusively established that in-person voter fraud is vanishingly rare (and not the underlying purpose of the laws anyway), aren’t you and your fellow voter ID supporters obliged to establish that these laws improve voters’ perceptions of the legitimacy of elections? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3434 "2013-10-29T00:21:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Having conclusively established that in-person voter fraud is vanishingly rare (and not the underlying purpose of the laws anyway), aren’t you and your fellow voter ID supporters obliged to establish that these laws improve voters’ perceptions of the legitimacy of elections? No. I’m obliged to show that the legislature voted for it, and the governor signed it, which makes it a valid law. If you wish to challenge it, it’s up to you to figure out some reason to do so, and bring suit in accord with that theory. Nor does your passive-aggressive bullshit go unnoticed: you have not, in fact, established that the underlying purpose of the laws is any particular thing. Not that it matters. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3435 "2013-10-29T00:34:47Z")
I thought we were talking about the expansion of these laws to other states, and not merely whether already-passed ones should remain. As for what we’ve established, you - as far as I can tell - have only ever defended these laws as necessary to shore up public confidence in the electoral process. IIRC, you admitted that if their purpose was to actually prevent fraud they would be aimed at absentee voters instead. My “passive-aggressive bullshit” is nothing more than reliance on your own position (or at least my recollection of it). ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3436 "2013-10-29T00:54:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. I’m obliged to show that the legislature voted for it, and the governor signed it, which makes it a valid law. If you wish to challenge it, it’s up to you to figure out some reason to do so, and bring suit in accord with that theory. > > Nor does your passive-aggressive bullshit go unnoticed: you have not, in fact, established that the underlying purpose of the laws is any particular thing. Not that it matters. 69 pages and you _still_ haven’t figured out the difference between “is this legal” and “why do you support this”. 69 fucking pages and you can’t tell the difference between a legal and a moral obligation. When they were passing out brains, did you pick the one made of cotton candy and pony shit? I cannot rationally believe that you are legitimately this stupid. You’re a lying shitbag with nothing interesting to say. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3437 "2013-10-29T01:02:06Z")
> [@](#): > > … the underlying purpose of the laws is any particular thing… I question the use of the word “underlying” in that sentence, it is somewhat misplaced. It implies something subtle and nuanced, grey shapes moving in a fog. 'Struth, it is totally In Yo Momma’s Face, Suck On It, Democrats!! There is nothing remotely subtle about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3438 "2013-10-29T01:12:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. I’m obliged to show that the legislature voted for it, and the governor signed it, which makes it a valid law. If you wish to challenge it, it’s up to you to figure out some reason to do so, and bring suit in accord with that theory. A better argument for the need for an independent judiciary, I rarely see. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3439 "2013-10-29T02:09:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > 69 pages and you _still_ haven’t figured out the difference between “is this legal” and “why do you support this”. 69 fucking pages and you can’t tell the difference between a legal and a moral obligation. When they were passing out brains, did you pick the one made of cotton candy and pony shit? I cannot rationally believe that you are legitimately this stupid. You’re a lying shitbag with nothing interesting to say. As I said above, disingenuous. dis·in·gen·u·ous 1. not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. synonyms: insincere, dishonest, untruthful, false, deceitful, duplicitous, lying, mendacious; He’s not a good person. Don’t let his demeanor fool you. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3440 "2013-10-29T11:31:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > 69 pages and you _still_ haven’t figured out the difference between “is this legal” and “why do you support this”. 69 fucking pages and you can’t tell the difference between a legal and a moral obligation. When they were passing out brains, did you pick the one made of cotton candy and pony shit? I cannot rationally believe that you are legitimately this stupid. You’re a lying shitbag with nothing interesting to say. He knows the difference, he just doesn’t give a flying fuck. Talking with him about moral obligation is a bit more difficult than talking with Helen Keller about color coordination. There are laws that have a fig leaf to hide their real purpose and he’ll hide behind that fig leaf, tiny as it might be. As long as it helps his party and keeps blacks and others whom he considers to be inferior from voting the wrong way, he’ll stay behind that fig leaf. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=171) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=173)