# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 181
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3601 "2013-10-31T14:51:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No matter how voter ID winds up, people will still have a chance to vote for Lizard People, as is their right. > > The Florida 2000 debacle was due more to the butterfly ballot design in some precincts whereby many votes intended for Al Gore wound up in Pat Buchanan’s column. Add to that having punch card ballots where some lack either the physical dexterity to punch out the chad entirely or lack the diligence to check their ballot for incompletely punched chads. Voter ID had nothing to do with it. So the cure for a problem that is so miniscule as to be statistically insignificant is to erect barriers to voting that are more easily cleared by supporters of one party than the other. I think it’s more of a case of desperation of a party that is demographically doomed than it is any concern for fair elections. How thick is your skull? I can’t believe this simple concept is not penetrating your skull, no matter how well-armored it is. Voter ID had nothing to do with it. Yes. True. Correct. Not saying it did. Never said it did. The point was: because the election happened to be so ultra-close (for reasons having nothing to do with Voter ID, and much to do with bad ballot design and weak senior citizens) the need for Voter ID became apparent, because the ultra-thin margin revealed the consequences, the inevitable results of combining a razor-thin finish with anything that allows people to legitimately question some ballots. If Bush had won Florida in 2000 by 100,000 votes, we wouldn’t care about the Palm Beach butterly ballot disaster or the chads or the Lizard People – we would recognize that even if we assume they all went the other way, the result would still be crystal clear. No worries. All those things became important only when we all realized that if enough of those dimpled chads, Lizard People ballots, and inexplicable votes for Pat Buchanan were recounted, the result might go the other way. Repeat the following line over and over again: _Voter Confidence is an issue When An Election Result Consists of a Razor-Thin Margin._ Got it? Good. Then stop misrepresenting and conveniently “forgetting” that this is my argument. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3602 "2013-10-31T15:10:03Z")
Let me get this straight. In a thread about voter ID, you bring up the Florida 2000 election even though the unique result had nothing to do with voter ID. The claim is that close elections prove the need to verify voters’ IDs. Your proposed cure is to erect barriers to voting that are going to be much easier for those who want to vote your way, and it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of everyone but yourself that the result will be an electoral advantage to your party. So because an election result was within a few hundred votes, we have to effectively disenfranchise tens of thousands of people. And we’re supposed to believe that the fact that such barriers help one party is just a happy coincidence. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3603 "2013-10-31T15:14:29Z")
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/10/31/texas-election-shows-impact-of-voter-id-laws/?tid=hpModule\_ba0d4c2a-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394&hpid=z12](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/10/31/texas-election-shows-impact-of-voter-id-laws/?tid=hpModule_ba0d4c2a-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394&hpid=z12) Hoist on his own petard. > [@](#): > > \*\*If not for Wendy Davis, Greg Abbott might not be able to vote. \*\* > When Abbott, the Texas Attorney General running for governor as a Republican next year, goes to vote in state constitutional elections this year, he will have to sign an affidavit affirming his identity. That’s because Abbott’s driver’s license identifies him as Gregory Wayne Abbott, but on the voter rolls, he’s just Greg Abbott . . . So far about one in seven Dallas voters have had to sign the affidavit. It’s very very common, but more so among married women. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3604 "2013-10-31T16:08:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > the ultra-thin margin revealed the consequences, the inevitable results of combining a razor-thin finish with anything that allows people to legitimately question some ballots Anyone whose agenda is to assure the unquestionable validity of the election result would focus on whatever problem had made it questionable (in this case, the badly designed butterfly ballot). Anyone whose true agenda lies elsewhere might or might not focus on a particular election problem, depending on whether or not they have a solution that ostensibly corrects that problem and actually serves the real agenda. Hence my above-described litmus test for distinguishing the two cases. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3605 "2013-10-31T16:12:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The class, for constitutional purposes, is not Democrats but people who have no state identification. The class for factual purposes is of course Democrats. People without IDs are not a protected class and tilting the playing field in favor of one party over another sounds a lot like run of the mill politicking. I don’t like it, I don’t like anything that undermines the franchise but so far it seems to have increased voter turnout in the targetted groups. Kinda like how the threat of an assault weapons ban made everyone and their uncle go out and buy an AR-15 if they didn’t already own one. Nothing makes you want to exercise a right like when some asshole tries to take it away. > [@Bricker](#): > > Then I guess it’s lucky there’s such strong agreement that Jim Crow laws are bad. But how is the photo ID requirement different than a literacy test (without a grandfather clause) or a poll tax? I mean, we needed a constitional amendment to get rid of poll taxes and the voting rights act to get rid of literacy tests. So without those laws or amendments, you would support upholding poll taxes and literacy tests if passed by the state legislature? I’m not saying that a photo ID requirement is as onerous a burden as a poll tax or a literacy test was at the time but these requirements seem to be designed to suppress turnout (of course it looks like the suppression effect is smaller than the “fuck you for trying to steal my vote, I’m going to wait on line for 8 hours to vote if I have to just to say fuck you” effect. In this case I am starting to suspect that the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze for the Republicans. > [@Bricker](#): > > When the Massachusetts legislature (overwhelmingly Democratic) was faced with the prospect of a Republican governor appointing a replacement US Senator (Governor Romney, if Kerry had won in 2004), they passed a law stripping the governor of the power to appoint senators. > > When the Massachusetts legislature (still overwhelmingly Democratic) was faced with the prospect of a Democratic governor being unable to appoint a replacement US Senator (Governor Patrick, faced with a vacant US Senate seat when Ted Kennedy died in 2009), they passed a new law allowing the governor to appoint a senator. > > But that was just peachy, because, you know, keeping Democrats in power is done not for partisan gain, but because they represent all that is Good, Correct, and Just. > > Lord knows it wasn’t simple partisan politicking. Of course it was simple politicking and while I don’t like it, its nothing new and subject to the ordinary levels of outrage we reserve for these sort of shenanigans. > [@Bricker](#): > > No, I disagree. Jim Crow laws suffered from a fatal flaw: their application was immediately, clearly, and undeniably racist. The photo ID laws do not suffer from that characteristic. How are literacy tests and poll taxes clearly racist? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not so sure about that. Billy Joe Jim Bob may be poor as a churchmouse and live in a trailer, but he’s probably got a car, even if it’s a beater. He still has to take time off work to get his ID, he still has to drive to get to the ID office, but when he gets there he probably has a short wait. The urban poor are going to find themselves in a line with 100 people in front of them and lose a whole day’s pay to get that precious ID. They sometimes also carve out people living in a nursing home from the photo ID requirement. I’m sure its just an accomodation for the elderly and not the result of the determination that old people have predictable voting habits. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3606 "2013-10-31T16:20:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let me get this straight. In a thread about voter ID, you bring up the Florida 2000 election even though the unique result had nothing to do with voter ID. The claim is that close elections prove the need to verify voters’ IDs. Your proposed cure is to erect barriers to voting that are going to be much easier for those who want to vote your way, and it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of everyone but yourself that the result will be an electoral advantage to your party. So because an election result was within a few hundred votes, we have to effectively disenfranchise tens of thousands of people. And we’re supposed to believe that the fact that such barriers help one party is just a happy coincidence. Got it. Why, if this fact is “proven,” can you not actually prove it? We have plenty of states with strict Voter ID, and no corresponding loss of minority turnout. Doesn’t that show the world you’re simply lying? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3607 "2013-10-31T16:26:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > We have plenty of states with strict Voter ID, and no corresponding loss of minority turnout. Are you referring to an actual study that has compared relative turnout in those states against national averages across multiple elections? Or are you just referring to the fact that Indiana, say, had more black people vote in 2008 than 2004? Genuinely curious, as I had thought that the people doing statistical analysis were basically saying that right now there isn’t enough data to really say one way or the other what the effect has been, given the need for various controls and comparators. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3608 "2013-10-31T16:42:06Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Are you referring to an actual study that has compared relative turnout in those states against national averages across multiple elections? Or are you just referring to the fact that Indiana, say, had more black people vote in 2008 than 2004? > > Genuinely curious, as I had thought that the people doing statistical analysis were basically saying that right now there isn’t enough data to really say one way or the other what the effect has been, given the need for various controls and comparators. _Arguendo_, if the people are saying there isn’t enough data to say, then…how is it that people such as **BobLibDem** say with such utter confidence, " it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of everyone but yourself that the result will be an electoral advantage to your party?" And why do you question me about my claim, and not him about his? My answer apart from that argument is: the baseline numbers show no change. That at least establishes a prima facie case for no effect – it places the burden on those who argue there really has been a change to demonstrate it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3609 "2013-10-31T16:48:24Z")
I’m not really interested in your debate with other posters. Based on your post, I thought you had some information that would be news to me and might affect my views on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3610 "2013-10-31T16:57:12Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m not really interested in your debate with other posters. Based on your post, I thought you had some information that would be news to me and might affect my views on the subject. But you didn’t wonder if **BobLibDem** had some information that would be news to you and might affect your views on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3611 "2013-10-31T17:00:32Z")
No, I did not. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3612 "2013-10-31T17:17:31Z")
[Nate Silver](http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/measuring-the-effects-of-voter-identification-laws/?_r=0) has a pretty objective piece on it. > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, it’s clear enough that stricter voter ID requirements are probably bad for Democrats, on balance. In almost every state where the ID laws have been at issue, Republican governors and legislatures have been on the side of passing stricter ones, while Democrats have sought to block them. There is also [this study](http://faculty.washington.edu/mbarreto/papers/PS_VoterID.pdf) showing that in Indiana, 88% of whites meet all photo ID requirements, compared to 81% of blacks, 80% of Latinos, and 80% of Asians. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3613 "2013-10-31T17:24:13Z")
Bricker, you claim that because elections can have razor thin margins that voter ID makes sense. Yet in-person voter fraud is practically non existent and numbers in the tens. But you’re supporting a law that makes it harder for thousands of people to vote. And the majority of those people, are those that typically vote for Democrats. So, we’ve got a non-problem (in person voter fraud) and a solution (Voter ID) that is actually worse for democracy than the problem it’s designed to fight. And more likely to shift an election with razor thin margins. It really seems like you’re either stupid in that you can’t understand why the solution you support is counter productive, or just want an electoral advantage, and are willing to keep people you don’t particularly like from voting to get it. Which is it? Or is there a third option? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3614 "2013-10-31T17:26:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > People without IDs are not a protected class and tilting the playing field in favor of one party over another sounds a lot like run of the mill politicking. They don’t have to be a protected class. Elevated scrutiny attaches to laws burdening fundamental rights as well as suspect classifications. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3615 "2013-10-31T17:32:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …Kinda like how the threat of an assault weapons ban made everyone and their uncle go out and buy an AR-15 if they didn’t already own one… No, isn’t “kinda like”, it isn’t like it _at all_! The AWB has nothing whatever to do with the matter at hand! The AWB does not affect voter id, it has no relevance to the Defenestration at Prague, no bearing whatever on Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, no impact whatsoever on the balance of trade or the GDP! The AWB is not the axis upon which the Universe turns!! _AAAAAaaaaarrrgh!_ ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3616 "2013-10-31T17:36:38Z")
I think they’ve switched **Rotten Sumbitch** ’s regular coffee with crack cocaine or something. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3617 "2013-10-31T17:50:16Z")
Its him and the goddam motherfucking AWB! Driving me nuts! OK, maybe its a short trip, but I still don’t want to go! Talk about gay marriage, he tries to shoehorn the AWB into the conversation. Talk about global warming, somehow the AWB is central to the discussion. He must be stopped! By any means necessary, he must be STOPPED! Before it spreads, before someone identifies a Throat Warbler Mangrove and you think, no, no, can’t be, it doesn’t have the correct bayonet mounting configuration, and then you will see, but it will be TOO LATE! TOO LATE!!! _Aaaaaarrrgh!_ (Cue visual, John Belusi style thrash, flail and collapse…) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3618 "2013-10-31T18:00:57Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There is also [this study](http://faculty.washington.edu/mbarreto/papers/PS_VoterID.pdf) showing that in Indiana, 88% of whites meet all photo ID requirements, compared to 81% of blacks, 80% of Latinos, and 80% of Asians. I think **Bricker** makes a fair point when he says, “so what”? If voter ID doesn’t actually depress minority/low-income turnout, then it can’t very well be attacked as a threat to democracy. I question whether the lack of impact will be reflected in subsequent elections (since there was a significant backlash to the voter purges that accompanied voter ID, at least in Florida) but if it is, there’s not much to complain about. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3619 "2013-10-31T18:08:26Z")
> [@Really Ate All Those Braiiins](#): > > … but if it is, there’s not much to complain about. I think it’s a big factor in weighing these laws. But another factor is that real people are fully disenfranchised by them. I have a client, whose details I won’t go into, who really cannot through any amount of personal effort obtain a photo ID even though she is an American citizen. It’s quite rare, I expect, necessarily involving weird facts related to birth certificates and usually very old people from places like Puerto Rico. But I regard it as a very serious harm that is not outweighed by making some people feel more confident about elections. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3620 "2013-10-31T18:10:15Z")
That’s like saying its not attempted murder if someone takes a shot at you and misses. We shouldn’t _need_ a backlash, we shouldn’t have any reason to! Further, it exposes the rotten weevil at the heart of the modern Republican Party! Any day now, Barry Goldwater will rise from his grave and puke his guts out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=180) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=182)