# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 183
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3641 "2013-11-01T12:15:44Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **Uzi** , be honest. This isn’t about ensuring that the results of the election match the will of the public - if it were, you’d be more worried about legal voters being able to get their vote out. I think it is more that he found government ID relatively simple to attain and useful to have and cannot imagine a situation where the time and resources taken to obtain an ID may have more of a detrimental impact on someone’s life than it did on his. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3642 "2013-11-01T13:04:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This presumes that these laws will be enforced equally in conservative precincts and liberal precincts. Sure. So you do allow that it might be the case that rural Rep voters might be negatively affects more than urban Dem voters. And if one could control for equal enforcement, then you’d be okay with an ID requirement? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3643 "2013-11-01T13:22:26Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I think it is more that he found government ID relatively simple to attain and useful to have and cannot imagine a situation where the time and resources taken to obtain an ID may have more of a detrimental impact on someone’s life than it did on his. I live in a place where photo ID’s are a requirement and useful. I’m sure there are some who can’t get one. [Hong Kong identity card - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Identity_Card) Just because some can’t, should we stop the world for them? I can imagine many scenarios where people would have difficulty getting an ID card. Unfortunately, those who live in perpetual servitude such that they never have days off, or smoke crack, or are retards, or are in the country illegally, but they are unlikely to vote in any case and, in some cases, should be actively discouraged from doing so. There are even those who have valid reasons like being invalids or elderly. As I’ve said before, if I ran a political party, I’d be figuring ways to get the grass roots involved in helping them get their ID’s. I’d make it a point to help anyone, democrat or republican, because it is a good, cheap way to get people on your side. But hey, continue bitching about the inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3644 "2013-11-01T13:37:06Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So we should put a requirement on voting which has long-since been demonstrated to be odious for many people, but we shouldn’t make any effort to ensure that people can fulfill this requirement, or aid them in doing so, _despite the fact that we know that many won’t do it_. No, you should have a national ID card. It is odious to many people to pay taxes, but you make them, don’t you? You aid them by giving them **TIME** to comply with the requirements. You make sure the requirement is **[CLEAR](http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e)** so they know what to do to comply. You don’t do more than that when you give them a tax bill, and a hell of a lot less if you want to be honest about it. > [@](#): > > **Uzi** , be honest. This isn’t about ensuring that the results of the election match the will of the public - if it were, you’d be more worried about legal voters being able to get their vote out. As I’ve said previously, it is important to me that my vote, which I have a right to cast and have proven that I am eligible to cast it, isn’t countered by someone who may not have that right or can’t prove it. This isn’t innocent until proven guilty, it is the opposite. That is more important to me than someone who has met the same criteria I have and votes opposite to what I do because they have the right to disagree with me and vote accordingly. People who can’t prove they are Canadians or meet the other criteria don’t have that right, nor should they. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3645 "2013-11-01T13:59:48Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I live in a place where photo ID’s are a requirement and useful. I’m sure there are some who can’t get one. [Hong Kong identity card - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Identity_Card) > Just because some can’t, should we stop the world for them? Being unfamiliar with Hong Kong’s set up for issuing an identity card I can’t comment on the difficulties of obtaining one of these vs. obtaining a voter ID in the states other than to say that the differences in geography and a single issuer vs. a multiplicity of issuers with differing requirements renders a one to one comparison unfair at best. I do think that most objections to voter ID would evaporate if there was a national mandatory ID requirement in the US and that ID was considered a valid voter ID. I also think that the current proponents of voter ID would be among the loudest voices fighting against such a national ID. > [@](#): > > I can imagine many scenarios where people would have difficulty getting an ID card. Unfortunately, those who live in perpetual servitude such that they never have days off, or smoke crack, or are retards, or are in the country illegally, but they are unlikely to vote in any case and, in some cases, should be actively discouraged from doing so. Given that I feel an election should be a reflection of the will of the people I disagree with the fact that anyone with a legal right to vote should be actively or passively discouraged. No matter how poor, lazy or stupid you are you should be able to vote. > [@](#): > > There are even those who have valid reasons like being invalids or elderly. As I’ve said before, if I ran a political party, I’d be figuring ways to get the grass roots involved in helping them get their ID’s. I’d make it a point to help anyone, democrat or republican, because it is a good, cheap way to get people on your side. But hey, continue bitching about the inevitable. Personally I would move away from fighting the voter ID itself and move towards fighting to include measures to ensure that everyone has easy access to obtain such an ID in the law itself. Make it mandatory for the government to set up booths in grocery stores or other places where people generally congregate, have them manned 7 days a week for one month each year for the first several years after the requirement is in place. Set up a process where IDs are issued through the school system to ensure that people are given their IDs as they reach the age of majority, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3646 "2013-11-01T14:06:23Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I live in a place where photo ID’s are a requirement and useful. I’m sure there are some who can’t get one. [Hong Kong identity card - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Identity_Card) > Just because some can’t, should we stop the world for them? Well, maybe. The US is supposed to be a beacon of liberty, or somesuch. Any “show me your papers” law flies in the face of that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3647 "2013-11-01T15:10:09Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > …Set up a process where IDs are issued through the school system to ensure that people are given their IDs as they reach the age of majority, etc. Heck, any of us could come up with a dozen ways to make it easy to get those cards into the hands of the people. But there is a valid neutral justification for why they didn’t! They didn’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3648 "2013-11-01T15:39:27Z")
> [@Really Ate All Those Braiiins](#): > > Well, maybe. The US is supposed to be a beacon of liberty, or somesuch. Any “show me your papers” law flies in the face of that. Heh. NSA. Nuff said. You would be deluded if you think that an ID card would make you less free or surveilled than you are now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3649 "2013-11-01T15:47:43Z")
> [@Really Ate All Those Braiiins](#): > > Well, maybe. The US is supposed to be a beacon of liberty, or somesuch. Any “show me your papers” law flies in the face of that. Nonsense. We don’t regard “show me your driver’s license” as an infringement on our liberty when we’re driving. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3650 "2013-11-01T15:50:34Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > For instance, I’d say if you asked people “would you like your taxes reduced” you’d get nearly universal agreement. Does that mean that every proposed tax reduction of any sort automatically wins any argument because opinion polls support it? If we took this very thread, fairly summarized the positions and arguments on both sides, and showed it to people, would the percent who supported your side be the same as the percent who answered “yes” to “do you support requiring voter ID”? Why must we do that with this issue, and only this issue? If we explained in precise, accurate detail what happens in an abortion, complete with pictures, and showed it to people, would the percent who support abortion rights change? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3651 "2013-11-01T16:20:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why must we do that with this issue, and only this issue? > > If we explained in precise, accurate detail what happens in an abortion, complete with pictures, and showed it to people, would the percent who support abortion rights change? Your rephrasing is less than strictly honest. He didn’t say “must”, he said “What if?”. One is imperative, the other suggestive. But I figure you know that. Also, there is no suggestion that it must be “only this issue”. That is your own construction. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3652 "2013-11-01T16:42:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why must we do that with this issue, and only this issue? > > If we explained in precise, accurate detail what happens in an abortion, complete with pictures, and showed it to people, would the percent who support abortion rights change? So are you ignoring the rest of my post? In any case, I’m not saying we MUST do anything. I’m saying that even in a democracy using opinion polls as arguments for or against some position is usually meaningless. And the reason that abortion is legal is not because of public opinion on the matter, it’s because of supreme court decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3653 "2013-11-01T17:05:30Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So are you ignoring the rest of my post? > In any case, I’m not saying we MUST do anything. I’m saying that even in a democracy using opinion polls as arguments for or against some position is usually meaningless. And the reason that abortion is legal is not because of public opinion on the matter, it’s because of supreme court decisions. And the reason Voter ID is legal is because the Supreme Court upheld it. And in a democracy, using the fact that the duly-elected legislature voted for the law, the governor signed it, and the courts upheld it is supposed to carry some weight. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3654 "2013-11-01T17:27:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the reason Voter ID is legal is because the Supreme Court upheld it. > > And in a democracy, using the fact that the duly-elected legislature voted for the law, the governor signed it, and the courts upheld it is supposed to carry some weight. (Exasperated sigh). Obviously voter ID is legal. That’s not remotely the point, and at no point have I said it wasn’t. I’m claiming that it is BAD, NEFARIOUS, UNDERHANDED, ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and a bunch of other things, and I’m claiming that your support for it causes me to lose respect for you. If the thread was purely about whether voter ID was legal, it would have ended after post #3 or so. (I also think the system should be changed so that any laws like voter ID which change how elections are conducted require entirely different procedures and levels of scrutiny, etc., but saying I wish the system was different doesn’t mean I’m in denial about how the system is now.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3655 "2013-11-01T17:34:29Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (Exasperated sigh). > > Obviously voter ID is legal. That’s not remotely the point, and at no point have I said it wasn’t. I’m claiming that it is BAD, NEFARIOUS, UNDERHANDED, ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and a bunch of other things, and I’m claiming that your support for it causes me to lose respect for you. If the thread was purely about whether voter ID was legal, it would have ended after post #3 or so. > > (I also think the system should be changed so that any laws like voter ID which change how elections are conducted require entirely different procedures and levels of scrutiny, etc., but saying I wish the system was different doesn’t mean I’m in denial about how the system is now.) Well, I don’t agree it’s bad, nefarious, under-handed, or anti-democratic. But that’s what makes America great. You’re entitled to those opinions; I, to mine. It seemed to me this thread was about overturning those laws, which would presumably mean that someone seeking to do that first takes the position that they are not legal. But if this discussion is simply a desire to announce our own feelings about the law, that’s easy. I like it! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3656 "2013-11-01T17:36:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nonsense. We don’t regard “show me your driver’s license” as an infringement on our liberty when we’re driving. I regard the requirement that I carry a driver’s license with my photograph on it a substantial infringement on my liberty. The requirement that I show _a_ license _while operating a vehicle on public roads_, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3657 "2013-11-01T17:50:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seemed to me this thread was about overturning those laws I’m sure some people in this thread are saying something like “these laws should be overturned”, a sentiment which, depending on how it’s expressed, I definitely agree with. But, at least used informally, that could mean either “I would like a large number of people to start a referendum to overturn these laws” or perhaps “I wistfully wish that we lived in a country in which those laws were illegal” as opposed to “I believe that those laws violate current constitutional law, and I believe that the current courts in the actual USA we live in right now would be remiss in their duty if they did not overturn them”. So, now that we all understand our relative positions, I will repeat some questions you have left unanswered: (1) Why do you think Democratic leaders so strongly oppose voter ID laws? (2) You have claimed repeatedly that actual evidence shows no change in turnout, yet Nate Silver seems to think that it has resulted in a 1.5 to 3 percent gain for Republicans. What is your response to that? (3) Suppose that I was unable to convince you that these laws were a bad idea, but WAS able to convince you that the motives of the Republican lawmakers who proposed them were 100% cynical and partisan… would that give you pause? (4) Suppose voter ID laws were passed in state X, and Nate Silver and other such people suggested that they would result in a 1.5 to 3 percent gain for Republicans, and then in the next senatorial election in that state the Republican candidate won by 30,000 votes or so, but by gum there was sure as heck no in-person voter fraud, no siree. How would you feel about that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3658 "2013-11-01T18:27:34Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (1) Why do you think Democratic leaders so strongly oppose voter ID laws? They are in error, or they believe that they benefit form illegal votes. > [@](#): > > (2) You have claimed repeatedly that actual evidence shows no change in turnout, yet Nate Silver seems to think that it has resulted in a 1.5 to 3 percent gain for Republicans. What is your response to that? He does? > [@Nate Silver](#): > > Pennsylvania, for instance, went from having no voter ID laws to a strict photo ID requirement. Based on the academic studies, I estimate that this will reduce turnout by about 2.4 percent as a share of registered voters. And based on my formula to convert changes in turnout to changes in the popular vote, I estimate that this would reduce President Obama’s margin against Mitt Romney by a net of 1.2 percentage points. But he wrote that in the middle of 2012. So far as I can tell, he has not yet penned a mea culpa, but his “estimates” were not borne out by the numbers in any state. > [@](#): > > (3) Suppose that I was unable to convince you that these laws were a bad idea, but WAS able to convince you that the motives of the Republican lawmakers who proposed them were 100% cynical and partisan… would that give you pause? No. Who cares? I am pretty confident that some number of Republicans voted for these because they thought they would gain advantage. I have no idea how many, but it’s certainly not “zero.” > [@](#): > > (4) Suppose voter ID laws were passed in state X, and Nate Silver and other such people suggested that they would result in a 1.5 to 3 percent gain for Republicans, and then in the next senatorial election in that state the Republican candidate won by 30,000 votes or so, but by gum there was sure as heck no in-person voter fraud, no siree. How would you feel about that? Happy. Why? Because you don’t say that the actual figures reflect a depressed turnout for minorities. Nate Silver, in fact, admits that he reaches his conclusion by discounting the null hypothesis, because, in his words, “Why should we give the benefit of the doubt to notion that voter ID laws will not affect turnout?” Nate doesn’t seem to have written anything that analyzes actual voting data – just his predictions that voting would probably be effected. Where are the numbers that show it was? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3659 "2013-11-01T18:44:56Z")
There’s your answer, **Max**. His party gaining power does indeed mean everything to him; the importance of democracy itself is beyond his comprehension. Now why are you so surprised? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3660 "2013-11-01T18:46:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s your answer, **Max**. His party gaining power does indeed mean everything to him; the importance of democracy itself is beyond his comprehension. > > Now why are you so surprised? I can’t at all see how you got that from what Bricker wrote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=182) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=184)