# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 186
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3701 "2013-11-04T19:24:35Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > One further comment for **Bricker** and others… one thread of this debate that has come up a lot is the idea that getting an ID is really EASY, so anyone who doesn’t do so (or doesn’t already have one) must be lazy. The idea that “get an ID” is such a minor inconvenience that it should no more interfere with one’s voting than, I dunno, moving the polling place a further block away, or something. > The problem with all those arguments, to me, is that they’re refusing to recognize the variability in people’s lives and living situations. Something that would be trivial for you can be incredibly difficult for someone else. Some people don’t have cars. Some people don’t speak English well. Some people aren’t accustomed to dealing with government bureaucracy. Some people have 4 children under the age of 5 and can’t afford babysitters ever. > > Sure, a quick jaunt down to the DMV sounds easy enough for you and me, and it would be easy enough for you and me. But it’s ridiculous for you to assume that it’s just that easy for everyone. Furthermore, a few stories have come out in the past few days about high-level elected representatives who couldn’t get voter IDs due to confusion with middle names and maiden names and so forth. How much harder is that going to be to deal with for someone who is NOT an elected representative, NOT someone who can make a fuss to the press, does NOT have a nice easy-to-spell “American-sounding” name, and does NOT have the experience and general resourcefulness to deal with this kind of bureaucratic nonsense? I think that’s nonsense. No story has come out about any problem that wasn’t addressable. The government has no particular obligation to make voting easier to compensate for a lack of ability to communicate in English. Dealing with government bureaucracy is similarly a fact of life. In short, I believe you’re creating problems where none truly exist in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3702 "2013-11-04T19:54:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think that’s nonsense. No story has come out about any problem that wasn’t addressable. So how much is all this addressing going to cost? Is it more than whatever economic losses result from low “confidence”, whatever that means? ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3703 "2013-11-04T19:55:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In short, I believe you’re creating problems where none truly exist in any meaningful way. Speaking of which. . . ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3704 "2013-11-04T20:30:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So how much is all this addressing going to cost? Is it more than whatever economic losses result from low “confidence”, whatever that means? No. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3705 "2013-11-04T21:01:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Washington State governor, 2004. 129 votes. > > Indiana’s 8th US congressional district, 1984. 4 votes. > > Alaska’s US congressman, 2008. 1 vote. > > I don’t really care much what it seems “to many of you.” Because the “many of you” are actually a minority. The majority of US, the voting public, like the idea of photo ID. And if the “will of the people” is not to get off their ass and obtain a free photo ID, then I can only imagine they don’t particularly care to vote. > > In any event, what solution are you proposing? The laws are passed, signed, court-approved…what do the “many of you” wish to do? > > I’ll wait if you need to have a quick meeting with the rest of you. No, Halloween is over and I’m back to being a single corporate entity \. I’d ask for cites, but if the races really were that close, I repeat my comfort with shrugging my shoulders and declaring them a toss-up in which either side has just as much – and just as little – claim as the other. But if **Bryan** ’s right about 2004, then this truly is another instance of you ignoring the “motes and beams” problem. As for what you care or don’t care about, it doesn’t serve any of us to play that game. And if you are simply demonstrating that people can be persuaded by a carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign, including such distortions as I referred to in **Uzi** ’s statement, well, I’ll have to agree. Propaganda does indeed sway public opinion. Are you segueing back into neener-neener territory again? As for the characterization of “lazy”, well, others have made the point already and I’ll briefly reiterate. There are plenty of scenarios common to economically disadvantaged people that would interfere with their obtaining new ID materials that have absolutely nothing to do with laziness. But you knew that, you just like characterizing them so because it serves that propaganda purpose I mentioned earlier. Finally, I note that this threat is a pitting (check the title of the OP) and not a call for ameliorative action. I’ll not bother to describe my suggestions for further actions because I have already answered this question from you, as have others, but you ignore those and roll back to thumbing your nose at us. Then asking again. So be it. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3706 "2013-11-04T23:04:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Actually, I live in a country that has a nonpartisan government agency dedicated to running elections and maintaining voter rolls and they do so very well. And you are in a discussion about a country that doesn’t. Where each state has their own rules and is about as inefficient as can be imagined in doing so. > [@](#): > > What difference does it make what name you vote with? Even in Canada if you show up with a different name on your ID than on the register, they are going to question you and potentially stop you from voting. Really, don’t deliberately be dense. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3707 "2013-11-04T23:54:14Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > And you are in a discussion about a country that doesn’t. Where each state has their own rules and is about as inefficient as can be imagined in doing so. That just means I can be objective. And smug. I can be smug. > [@](#): > > Even in Canada if you show up with a different name on your ID than on the register, they are going to question you and potentially stop you from voting. Really, don’t deliberately be dense. I’ve never actually been asked for ID any time I’ve voted. I give them my name and address, they have a list of the electorate in the district, cross off my name, hand me a ballot. Weeks before the election, cards are mailed out that say (more or less) “Our records show that at this residence, the following persons are eligible to vote in the upcoming election. If there are any errors, report them to…” The mechanism to correct errors is built into the system - we don’t get rude surprises at the polls, or at least I’ve not heard of any such cases. My point is that we have an agency that is working to make voting easier for everyone. We don’t have anyone deliberately trying to make it more difficult for people who might vote “wrong”. Our confidence is high. You’re a damn fool. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3708 "2013-11-04T23:55:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Oh, I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask you to show your work on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3709 "2013-11-04T23:58:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In short, I believe you’re creating problems where none truly exist in any meaningful way. You owe me one irony meter. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3710 "2013-11-05T14:46:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask you to show your work on this one. Why should I? What have I to prove? The laws are already passed. Who do I need to persuade by showing my work? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3711 "2013-11-05T14:49:45Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I’ll not bother to describe my suggestions for further actions because I have already answered this question from you, as have others, but you ignore those and roll back to thumbing your nose at us. Then asking again. So be it. Maybe just mention the post number in which you described your suggestions for further actions, then. I’ll go back and re-read them myself. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3712 "2013-11-05T14:52:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why should I? What have I to prove? The laws are already passed. Who do I need to persuade by showing my work? Indeed. One wonders why you post here at all. You goal is not to persuade, it is only to provoke. It’s just entertainment, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3713 "2013-11-05T15:01:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Indeed. One wonders why you post here at all. You goal is not to persuade, it is only to provoke. It’s just entertainment, correct? I post here on the SDMB, in general, to subject my own convictions to a test in the crucible – I seek the antithesis of an echo chamber, a motivation foreign to many liberals, who seek the comfort of knowing that they hold all the correct, best opinions of enlightened people, as described by the New York Times. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3714 "2013-11-05T15:04:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I post here on the SDMB, in general, to subject my own convictions to a test in the crucible – I seek the antithesis of an echo chamber, a motivation foreign to many liberals, who seek the comfort of knowing that they hold all the correct, best opinions of enlightened people, as described by the New York Times. You keep saying this, like it isn’t true of most humans including most conservatives. I think it would be interesting if you subjected this particular idea to the crucible–i.e., start a thread asserting that liberals are more ideologically sheltered than conservatives, and see what the actual evidence has to say on that subject. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3715 "2013-11-05T15:26:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why should I? What have I to prove? The laws are already passed. Who do I need to persuade by showing my work? You don’t need to persuade anybody and as far as I can tell, you have not. Your unsupported assertion will just have to take its chances in the environment of public opinion as exists in this thread. For what it’s worth, I’ll offer my own observations: 1. We are given the vague idea that some voters somewhere in the U.S. lack “confidence” in the election system to some extent because some votes might be miscast. Can we quantify, even theoretically, what effect this actually has on American society or economy or the Mets’ chances at a pennant or anything else? 2. We are also given accounts of voters who get delayed or even turned away from polling stations because of problems with identification, as well as accounts of long waits to get acceptable identification in the first place. This _can_ be quantified to some extent - lost productivity and such. Heck, there are statisticians who just _love_ to calculate the economic effects of downtime. 3. Bricker, when asked if the impact of (2) is greater than the impact of (1), offers a blunt “No.” When asked to provide specifics, Bricker seems to take personal offense at the idea. 4. In a later post, Bricker says he posts here to face a “crucible.” I sense a contradiction in his behaviour, or at least that he likes a crucible that’s not too cruciblish. A crucible that’s not too high in temperature. A hot-tub crucible, as it were, a bit intense but not uncomfortable, with a hardwood deck and cupholders and maybe a sound system. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3716 "2013-11-05T15:37:56Z")
> [@](#): > > …start a thread asserting that liberals are more ideologically sheltered than conservatives… Can’t see how that will help anything, those of us who are “ideologically sheltered” (whatever the heck that means) will most likely deny it, and those who aren’t will deny it as well. As well, a progressive is stuck with an inherent vagueness. We cannot actually know which of our policies will certainly advance the equality and well-being we want for our people, uncertainty is in the very nature of change. The conservative has no such problem, they resist change, period. I have become convinced over time that this is more a matter of personality and outlook than any actual ideology. Perhaps more to the point, ideology is the clothing that personality wears, the typical conservative is cramped, Calvinistic, and constipated. It is clear to him that wealth and power is in the appropriate hands, that things as they are is identical to things as they should be. _Feh!_ as they say in Lubbock. Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! From the git-go, with the very Founding Fuckups, the notion that political power should be reserved for the propertied and monied classes was more or less presumed, it was the common wisdom. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine, for your helpful efforts, now kindly step aside and leave actual governance to those whom God has chosen. From that very beginning, Progressives have sought to advance and promote the rights of free citizens to participate on an equal basis, from that same beginning conservatives have resisted. This fight we are having here has been ongoing for better than two hundred years. Has there ever been an initiative to expand the voting population that was not resisted by conservatives? Ever? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3717 "2013-11-05T15:51:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You keep saying this, like it isn’t true of most humans including most conservatives. I think it would be interesting if you subjected this particular idea to the crucible–i.e., start a thread asserting that liberals are more ideologically sheltered than conservatives, and see what the actual evidence has to say on that subject. I don’t need to – I need to merely link to every freaking thread on this board. And bonus points for my highlight of all the times liberals say, “Many of us feel that…” as a perfect emphasis for how their opinion is bolstered by the safe knowledge that their ideological brethern are solidly behind them. Now, is it true also of most conservatives? Yes, probably. I don’t really hang out on conservative-themed discussion arenas, because the chorus of agreement is useless to me. But they exist, and are populated. Rush Limbaugh doesn’t lack for listeners. So, yeah, my best guess would be that this same trait exists for many conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3718 "2013-11-05T16:01:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Can’t see how that will help anything, those of us who are “ideologically sheltered” (whatever the heck that means) will most likely deny it, and those who aren’t will deny it as well. Yeah, it sounds like one of Raymond Smullyan’s logic puzzles about knights and knaves, wot? The key is to phrase your question along the lines of: “If I asked _that_ liberal which political philosophy was safe, what would he say?” It lets the denials of reality cancel each other out. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3719 "2013-11-05T17:29:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, yeah, my best guess would be that this same trait exists for many conservatives. So stop implying it is limited to or more widespread in liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/3720 "2013-11-05T17:33:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > implying That’s a very polite way of describing Bricker’s comments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=185) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=187)