# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/361 "2012-06-16T00:27:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have made this point a number of times. I don’t recall anyone really rebutting it. I claimed in [post 158](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=655025&page=4#post15164801) that there was a reasonable avenue for proof in California elections. I don’t know the particulars of voting in every jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/362 "2012-06-16T00:43:29Z")
There are a lot more where these came from: [Viviette Applewhite](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/pa_voter_id_law_viviette_applewhite.php) [Dorothy Cooper](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/05/336392/96-year-old-tennessee-woman-denied-voter-id-because-she-didnt-have-her-marriage-license/) [Ruthelle Frank, Carl Ellis, Barbara Oden, Eddie Lee Holloway Jr.](http://www.aclu.org/voting-rights/frank-v-walker-fighting-voter-suppression-wisconsin) [Wilola Lee](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/wilola-lee-plaintiff-in-the-aclu-voter-id-lawsuit-has-fought-for-years-to-prove-her-identity/) [Thelma Mitchell, Florence Hessing](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote?sc=tw) [John Wolfe, Rita Platt](http://www.wivoices.org/2011/12/10/wisconsin-couple-unable-to-get-id-to-vote/) [Nadine Marsh](http://www.centredaily.com/2012/06/13/3227118/too-many-roadblocks-before-the.html) [Joyce Block](http://articles.philly.com/2012-04-23/news/31387312_1_penndot-worker-marriage-license-peco) [Bea Bookler](http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=166236363442071&story_fbid=333512970047742) I’d certainly rather have them voting their conscience than some of the bigots and liars in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/363 "2012-06-16T01:31:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, I’m talking about people who will be here _legally_, nitwit. I’m talking about the people the other nitwit, Obama, is allowing to reside and work here _legally_. You may want to try getting your hand on another synapse, because just the one isn’t really doing you much good. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses so we can deport the fuckers. The grinch could take lessons from you. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/364 "2012-06-16T01:32:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The problem is that without voter ID, an illegal alien registering to vote, and voting, is a very low-risk proposition. No reliable way to associate a voter with the fact that he voted means almost no risk of prosecution – how do you prove the crime? > > I have made this point a number of times. I don’t recall anyone really rebutting it. And we’ve made the point a number of times that even with ID, your no further. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/365 "2012-06-16T01:36:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did I not supply a response? Really? > > Or am I not a guy screaming my head off? Because Icahn see that way out. You responded that perhaps it’s to save money. However, they reduced the early voting period from 14 to 8 days and the Sunday before election day (which is within 7 days). Doesn’t seem to make sense, does it? However, it just so happens that African Americans are twice as likely to vote on that day. Kinda makes you go, “Hmmmm.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/366 "2012-06-16T01:46:32Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > I claimed in [post 158](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=655025&page=4#post15164801) that there was a reasonable avenue for proof in California elections. I don’t know the particulars of voting in every jurisdiction. Yes, you did: > [@Punoqllads](#): > > Whether or not someone voted in a given election is public, correct? If deceased or illegal person voted, there would be a record that **someone** voted under their name. > Here in California, you have to write down your current address when you vote. Handwriting analysis plus testimony from the poll workers saying that they saw you vote should be enough for most sane juries, in my opinion. Is there a rule that a voter can’t use block printing? My recollection is that block printing is not reliable. In any event, California has at least an arguable reason to avoid Voter ID laws. And they have. My state does not require the voter to write anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/367 "2012-06-16T02:01:37Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > You responded that perhaps it’s to save money. However, they reduced the early voting period from 14 to 8 days and the Sunday before election day (which is within 7 days). Doesn’t seem to make sense, does it? However, it just so happens that African Americans are twice as likely to vote on that day. Kinda makes you go, “Hmmmm.” Did they offer any rationale for the change? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/368 "2012-06-16T02:05:37Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > And we’ve made the point a number of times that even with ID, your no further. You have? How can you? With an ID requirement, you have enough evidence to hand a jury – stronger than a handwriting comparison. Please give me the post number where you showed why photo ID would not help with a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/369 "2012-06-16T02:17:26Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > There are a lot more where these came from: > > [Viviette Applewhite](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/pa_voter_id_law_viviette_applewhite.php) > > [Dorothy Cooper](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/05/336392/96-year-old-tennessee-woman-denied-voter-id-because-she-didnt-have-her-marriage-license/) > > [Ruthelle Frank, Carl Ellis, Barbara Oden, Eddie Lee Holloway Jr.](http://www.aclu.org/voting-rights/frank-v-walker-fighting-voter-suppression-wisconsin) > > [Wilola Lee](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/wilola-lee-plaintiff-in-the-aclu-voter-id-lawsuit-has-fought-for-years-to-prove-her-identity/) > > [Thelma Mitchell, Florence Hessing](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote?sc=tw) > > [John Wolfe, Rita Platt](http://www.wivoices.org/2011/12/10/wisconsin-couple-unable-to-get-id-to-vote/) > > [Nadine Marsh](http://www.centredaily.com/2012/06/13/3227118/too-many-roadblocks-before-the.html) > > [Joyce Block](http://articles.philly.com/2012-04-23/news/31387312_1_penndot-worker-marriage-license-peco) > > [Bea Bookler](http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=166236363442071&story_fbid=333512970047742) > > I’d certainly rather have them voting their conscience than some of the bigots and liars in this thread. Which ones of these are real problems? I picked John and Rita at random and read a story about people that fully expect to have IDs and vote in the upcoming election, but are outraged on behalf of other people that won’t. Are any of them unable to cast provisional ballots? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/370 "2012-06-16T03:15:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Our problems with these laws could be easily solved. An outreach program, for instance. A voter registration drive that simultaneously provides voter id. Boy, the Republicans would love that, wouldn’t they? Wow, a whole bunch of newly registered voters with rock-solid ID? Great, huh? > > What you see is rescinding the Sunday voting laws that are very popular amongst black church-going voters… > Why? What’s the problem? I’d be willing to bet you didn’t hear anything about that until I told you about it. Well, now that you’ve heard about it, what do you think? Can you offer us some reasonable explanation? Do you approve? I don’t approve of making rules that pander to a specific sub-group just to make it easier for them to vote. I think free blow jobs at the polling booths would get me there more often, but I’m sure ~50% of the population wouldn’t agree that it was a great idea. Don’t get me wrong, Sunday is just as good a day to vote on as any other in my opinion. But, are you saying that Black people can’t figure out how to get to the polling booth on the days everyone else goes on? Snidely Wiplash: “Ha ha! You can’t vote on Sunday now!” Voter: “Okay, I’ll go on Monday with everyone else” Snidely Wiplash: ☹ > [@Lobohan](#): > > Interesting that you’re too stupid to understand the objections raised. Certainly. Can you tell the difference between objections and excuses? Objection: This rule effectively stops people from voting. Excuse: I couldn’t be assed to get an ID for the vote 4 years from now. I’ll be completely on board with you if you can prove that the former is the norm rather than the latter. I also think that if it is the latter then their vote won’t be missed. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/371 "2012-06-16T04:01:18Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I don’t approve of making rules that pander to a specific sub-group just to make it easier for them to vote. I think free blow jobs at the polling booths would get me there more often, but I’m sure ~50% of the population wouldn’t agree that it was a great idea. > Don’t get me wrong, Sunday is just as good a day to vote on as any other in my opinion. > But, are you saying that Black people can’t figure out how to get to the polling booth on the days everyone else goes on? Do you feel the same about **restrictions** of voting rules that pander to a specific sub-group by making it harder for another sub-group to vote? Cause that’s what’s going on here. Logically it’s exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/372 "2012-06-16T04:10:37Z")
You know it pisses me off when I can’t vote during work hours. Why not hold the damned thing on a weekend? Then I realized it didn’t matter and voted in the advance polls at my convenience. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/373 "2012-06-16T05:36:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which ones of these are real problems? I picked John and Rita at random and read a story about people that fully expect to have IDs and vote in the upcoming election, but are outraged on behalf of other people that won’t. Did you really read that story? If you had to jump through the hoops that they did, you’d probably not bother voting at all. I sure as hell wouldn’t. I’m pretty sure the founding fathers would have found that far more onerous than a poll tax. > [@](#): > > Are any of them unable to cast provisional ballots? As for provisional ballots, let’s start at the top. Sure she can cast a provisional ballot, [but it’s not going to actually be counted](http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/318851/0/Viviette-Applewhite-cant-vote-because-ID-was-stolen). ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/374 "2012-06-16T08:16:09Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > But, are you saying that Black people can’t figure out how to get to the polling booth on the days everyone else goes on? No, but the poor often don’t _have_ any other days off, nor such a reliable way to get to the polling station. Again, _what is the point_? If the entire purpose is “Make it harder for certain people to vote”, then I don’t _care_ whether or not it actually worked; the goal alone is reason to completely discredit the law as immoral and illegal. > [@](#): > > Certainly. Can you tell the difference between objections and excuses? > > Objection: This rule effectively stops people from voting. > Excuse: I couldn’t be assed to get an ID for the vote 4 years from now. > > I’ll be completely on board with you if you can prove that the former is the norm rather than the latter. I also think that if it is the latter then their vote won’t be missed. You know, with all the thing you need ID for in this country, shouldn’t it strike you as _somewhat_ suspicious that 11-12% of the voting populace don’t have one? Like, _maybe_ there’s some good reason for the fact? Like, what if the reason so many people don’t have a thing that many people need for everyday life is because, for whatever reason, it 's very difficult for them to obtain it? Because they almost never _have_ several hours to blow at the DMV, or quite a lot of time and money available to get their birth certificate, which they need? > [@Bricker](#): > > The problem is that without voter ID, an illegal alien registering to vote, and voting, is a very low-risk proposition. No reliable way to associate a voter with the fact that he voted means almost no risk of prosecution – how do you prove the crime? > > I have made this point a number of times. I don’t recall anyone really rebutting it. I reject the idea that we have no way of catching voter fraud. Come on, we’re not all idiots here. As someone else has already pointed out, California has a solid method for catching fraudsters. Most states have had _some_ kind of investigation – were there no way to reliably detect it, you’d think they would have saved themselves the trouble, no? There are ways to check this stuff. Most Also, wanna address my other post? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/375 "2012-06-16T11:48:47Z")
This thread has been enlightening for me. It is easy, especially in a forum as intelligent as this one, to assume right-wingers are sincere good-spirited people who are just misinformed. Without mentioning specific names, I’ve learned from this thread that many SDMB right-wingers are indeed foul-spirited racist assholes after all. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/376 "2012-06-16T12:10:17Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Without mentioning specific names, I’ve learned from this thread that many SDMB right-wingers are indeed foul-spirited racist assholes after all. It is interesting how people perceive things differently. I’ve gathered that the Democrats think minorities and the poor are incompetent children that without special treatment can’t figure out how to get a simple ID or go to the polling booths at the same times as other people. I don’t know why you’d think treating people the same is the racist position? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/377 "2012-06-16T12:30:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You have? > > How can you? With an ID requirement, you have enough evidence to hand a jury – stronger than a handwriting comparison. > > Please give me the post number where you showed why photo ID would not help with a conviction. What evidence do you have? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/378 "2012-06-16T13:26:21Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’ve gathered that the Democrats think minorities and the poor are incompetent children that without special treatment can’t figure out how to get a simple ID or go to the polling booths at the same times as other people. No, you’re not paying attention. We’re not saying that they’re incompetent. We’re pointing out that generally, those barely scraping by are doing so with very little free time or money to get the relevant ID. If you don’t have your own birth certificate (I don’t know where mine is at all, and I don’t think this is so rare), then that’s already $25+, plus the postage fee (or a trip to the one office in the entire state that deals with these things). Once that’s dealt with, then you get to go to a DMV or similar government office. Not everyone has a DMV in walking distance, and those with no ID will have to find a way there somehow – forcing them to either rely on friends (which is unlikely to be an option, I’ll explain below) or pay for the public transportation system. Then they will have to deal with the DMV; these trips very rarely take less than an hour, especially in the urban DMVs where most of the poor will be forced to go. More realistically, getting photo ID will take up an entire day. If something goes wrong, or they forgot some important document, they’ll have to take the trip _again_. And here’s the kicker: this has to be done during business hours. You know, the time when those who work two jobs are generally working one of those two jobs. If I have to work at my one job from 9:00-2:00, then my other job from 2:30 to 8:00, I have to take a day off of work to get my ID, and _god forbid_ something goes wrong. If I have to rely on my friends to get me to and from the DMV, then _they_ need to take time off to help me, or not have a job during these hours. This isn’t about “They’re too lazy, so we should help them”. This is about “legal citizens have real trouble getting ID”. [Hell, this guy can drive and is middle class (and white),](http://www.presspubs.com/osceola/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/article_04eea5ee-1abc-11e1-81c7-001cc4c03286.html) [and he couldn’t get ID!](http://www.wivoices.org/2011/12/10/wisconsin-couple-unable-to-get-id-to-vote/) Again, I’m going to have to reiterate this point, and I don’t know why, but here goes anyways: _11-12% of American citizens of legal voting age don’t have photo ID. In a time where photo ID is increasingly necessary to do many, many things, doesn’t this make you wonder why they wouldn’t have it?_ As said, this isn’t difficult. It’s a republican ploy to suppress predominately blue demographics, and it’s working. But no, go ahead, keep on touting those lines. > [@](#): > > I don’t know why you’d think treating people the same is the racist position? [![](https://www.iwastesomuchtime.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/68/cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/5232012052424iwsmt.jpeg) ](https://www.iwastesomuchtime.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/68/cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/5232012052424iwsmt.jpeg) “For a fair exam, everyone has the same test: please climb that tree.” This logic applies to everything from poll taxes to literacy tests to exams of physical aptitude (which, thank goodness, we’ve never had to go through with in order to vote – I would’ve failed miserably). And you know what? The first two on that list have been deemed illegal by the courts; the third almost certainly would be for exactly the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/379 "2012-06-16T14:07:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did they offer any rationale for the change? None that I could search out. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/380 "2012-06-16T14:12:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You have? > > How can you? With an ID requirement, you have enough evidence to hand a jury – stronger than a handwriting comparison. > > Please give me the post number where you showed why photo ID would not help with a conviction. Just woke up and don’t feel like rereading another 350 posts. I’ll just make the argument again. ID is ridiculously easier to procure. Even if obtained legally, it doesn’t express status of citizenship. So Joe Illegal registers to vote and votes. How do we catch him? How does him using an ID to vote make prosecution easier? Doesn’t it still come down to the poll worker remembering him and it then becoming a he said/she said issue? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=20)