# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 216
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4301 "2014-05-19T01:33:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, would you prefer a milder term of your own choosing, something with a light-hearted touch? How about “mischief”? Maybe it was all a practical joke, they really weren’t going to do anything like that, not really. No, not even mischief. The proposals for Voter ID improve the voting system. I am in favor of them. I have no need to stigmatize them with any pejorative term, no matter how light-hearted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4302 "2014-05-19T01:35:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You aren’t? No shit? No idea about that? Not an inkling? > > Might it be because if I am right about that, and I surely am, then your aspersions cast upon me are just so much buttwhistle? Sure. Trot out some examples of falsity promulgated by the Washington Times. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4303 "2014-05-19T02:43:53Z")
Someone mentioned earlier that voter ID disproportionately hurts Democrats. I don’t think that’s true anymore. The people most likely to not have ID and have trouble getting it are the elderly, not the poor. The poor either work or collect benefits, both of which require ID. They probably rent their apartments or homes, which also requires ID. Elderly people may not have any current need for ID and are often trotted out as the examples when activist groups sue over these laws. And who do the elderly vote for nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4304 "2014-05-19T02:51:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, not even mischief. The proposals for Voter ID improve the voting system. How? They solve no existing problem. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4305 "2014-05-19T02:53:54Z")
Neither does worrying about voter machines or campaign finance. Of course, there really is no comparison because we can actually find examples of voter fraud, we just disagree on whether they are significant enough to warrant voter ID laws. You can’t find any examples of voter machines being hacked or independent election spending directly influencing a politician’s votes in a quid pro quo manner. Yet the solutions proposed in both cases are much more far-reaching. And this to solve theoretical problems. At least voter ID purports to solve a problem that actually exists. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4306 "2014-05-19T03:04:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, very valid point. The problem is that the underlying argument **elucidator** made is not even being addressed: whether is’s a valid rhetorical tactic to dismiss, out of hand, the Washington Times because of its ownership. Except we didn’t really learn anything, imho. I guess a really extreme claim like “every single fact the Washing Times ever prints is automatically wrong” was disproved, but no one ever believed that to begin with. Is the Washington Times in fact a fair and balanced news source? I guess my only response to that question is… umm, beats me? There’s an interesting question as to how one should treat apparently-factual claims about a situation from a generally politically biased news source. But I think it’s outside the scope of this thread, and I don’t think we really learned much about it one way or other from the Elucidator kerfluffle. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4307 "2014-05-19T03:05:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The proposals for Voter ID improve the voting system. I’m mildly curious by what metric this has been established, on the assumption that merely making an _appearance_ of improvement that can impress some people doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4308 "2014-05-19T03:29:53Z")
It was never strictly about voter ID, no matter how many times you guys repeat that. It was about using voter ID as a means to a nefarious and partisan end. Its like we object to Republicans using baseball bats to club baby harp seals, to raise money for the $10 million Sarah Palin demands to shut the fuck up. I might object because those little seals are too cute to be clubbed, others might object because they don’t want Sarah Palin to shut up. No matter what opinion you might have on those issues, the legality, Constitutionality, function and all America wooden goodness of the baseball bat…doesn’t enter into it. Its not about the baseball bat, its about what it is being used for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4309 "2014-05-19T03:31:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Neither does worrying about voter machines or campaign finance. The difference is that our campaign-finance system is an existing problem. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4310 "2014-05-19T03:40:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Campaign finance laws, at least since BCRA, also deal with a supposed problem that cannot be proved to exist. Campaign finance laws, also since BCRA, are meant to infringe on the 1st amendment. They are not only immoral for that reason, but also illegal. > > Yet most liberals(other than the ACLU and Glenn Greenwald factions) support censorship of political ads. I honestly have no idea what campaign finance reform has to do with anything. It’s an interesting topic, but why is it in this thread? > [@](#): > > Rather, they’ve bought into the arguments made by self-interested actors who want to increase their power and influence while dangling the impossible dream that the common people’s voice will be heard if only we stop rich individuals from buying 30-second ads. I strongly disagree. But that’s a topic for another thread. > [@](#): > > If the ID is free, and you can show other proof of identity should you lose it, or failing that you can cast a provisional ballot where the signatures must match(which is Rhode Island’s law), then what’s the problem? What’s the problem? The length of this thread suggests that there are many answers to that question. But for me it comes down to this: I, personally, have not studied any of these proposed laws at much length, because I, personally, do not have the knowledge and background that would be necessary to really predict the impact of any of these laws. But the Democratic party leaders who are the ones who initially objected to these laws DO have that knowledge and expertise, and they are the ones making the initial claim. Now, obviously they are partisans and we shouldn’t immediately take everything they have to say at face value… but, in this case, why would they lie? If voter ID laws were NOT having a disparate impact, why would Democrats object to them? (Assuming you’re not so cynical as to suggest that Democrats actually want voter fraud to occur.) If you look at the who is supporting these laws, who is opposing them, and the context (these laws coming along at the same time as reduced voting hours, reducing early voting, etc.), Occam’s razor pretty clearly suggests that these laws ARE in fact likely to have a disparate impact, which is why they were proposed in the first place, and why so many on the left oppose them. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4311 "2014-05-19T03:41:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (a) - (c) are generally correctly stated. (d) is not. I will respond to this post at some point when I get a chance, but I have run out of time right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4312 "2014-05-19T03:50:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How? They solve no existing problem. Sure, they do: the problem of ultra-close elections. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4313 "2014-05-19T03:51:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The difference is that our campaign-finance system is an existing problem. In what way? There is no quid pro quo, and “getting money out of politics” is a nebulous purpose with no particular justification as an end in itself. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4314 "2014-05-19T03:54:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, they do: the problem of ultra-close elections. 😕 There will always be ultra-close elections and I’ve never before heard them called a problem. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4315 "2014-05-19T03:56:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In what way? There is no quid pro quo, and “getting money out of politics” is a nebulous purpose with no particular justification as an end in itself. **Of course** it has justification as an end in itself. A democracy where the rich and the business interests always get their way is a plutocracy, not a democracy, and not a good society. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4316 "2014-05-19T03:58:50Z")
Is there any way to demonstrate that this is due to campaign financing? Has the campaign finance changes to date reduced the problem? Or could it be that the economically powerful have other ways to leverage their power? Such as jobs. Would Michigan politicians support the auto industry even if they didn’t get donations from the auto industry? Of course. Same goes for coal in West Virginia, corn in Iowa, oil in Texas, Wall Street in New York. The power to move jobs out of one state and into another is where the real power lies. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4317 "2014-05-19T04:01:04Z")
Another theory is that since politicians mostly know other rich people, that’s where they get their views and ideas from. So they’ll always be biased towards the desires of the rich, because that’s whose parties they go to, that’s who their daughters marry, that’s who they hang out with at church. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4318 "2014-05-19T04:05:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, they do: the problem of ultra-close elections. A voter ID law is almost exactly as likely to cause an ultra-close election as it is to prevent one. Where the hell did you study statistics? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4319 "2014-05-19T04:55:07Z")
And if an ultra-close election is a problem, the solution is always a recount. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4320 "2014-05-19T04:59:59Z")
I think the solution is to just call it a tie, since accurate vote counts are not possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=215) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=217)