# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 219
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4361 "2014-05-19T17:52:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I have agreed that a wise approach is to require at least one election cycle between the passage of the law and the implementation of it. Not only does that ensure time to create and make available the requisite IDs, it also allows the electorate to reject the legislature that has approved the scheme before the scheme takes effect. Well, _he_ did. Sorta kinda. So, that’s one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4362 "2014-05-19T17:54:32Z")
Except not really. So it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4363 "2014-05-19T17:57:38Z")
The boy has his moments. Too bad they are just moments. But he has them! That he has them at all is largely due to your influence. A bit of help from me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4364 "2014-05-19T18:04:36Z")
I think they’re pretty much all from you - except when somebody quotes me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4365 "2014-05-19T18:11:56Z")
Let’s just agree its all\*\* BrainGlutton\*\* and **Der Trihs**. That seems fair. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4366 "2014-05-19T18:49:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Evidence that you are wrong is the context. Republicans are proposing a bunch of new laws about elections, of which voter ID is one. The rest of the laws? Well, if there were a large number of Republicans who were interested in the issue of voter confidence, then you’d expect the rest of the laws to be things that would actually address that issue, such as mandating electronic voter machines with human-verifiable paper output, and things to verify IDs when it came to mail-in votes, etc. Instead, the package of laws of which voter ID laws are a part involve cutting voting hours, eliminating early in-person voting, and so forth. > > So the evidence suggests that the intended effect of the law is voter suppression, and the effect on voter confidence that you’re so fond of is, at best, secondary. The problem is equivocation: you and I are apparently using the words “the law” in two different ways. I am referring solely and specifically to the issue of requiring state-issued photo ID. You are discussing the entirety of the the package of laws. As the Supreme Court correctly observed: “But if a nondiscriminatory law is supported by valid neutral justifications, those justifications should not be disregarded simply because partisan interests may have provided one motivation for the votes of individual legislators.” I absolutely agree that some individual legislators had dishonorable motives in casting their votes. But when, apart from this, have we ever looked to the motive of individual legislators who approve a law in determining its validity? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4367 "2014-05-19T18:54:09Z")
There’s the minor issue of these alleged “valid, neutral justifications” being neither valid nor neutral nor justifications. But that’s been explained patiently enough already. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4368 "2014-05-19T18:55:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, on the understanding that you won’t just turn around and say “anecdotal evidence doesn’t count.” > > There’s [Dorothy Card](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/26/2683971/dorothy-card-voter-id/), an elderly Texas woman who’s never had a problem voting before, but may do so now because she can’t get the necessary ID, despite several good-faith efforts. I realize she’s not technically been blocked from voting, simply because an election has not yet occurred since this latest round of voter-ID efforts. I expect we’ll have more anecdotes come November. > > That said, it’s not _that_ big a deal, I guess, in the larger sense. If 0.1% of the population is disenfranchised (to address a problem that perhaps occurred 0.0001% of the time), it shouldn’t affect elections any more than, say, the weather. If you’re okay with disenfranchisement of some of your fellow citizens, of course. She [hasn’t been unable to vote:](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/nov/19/greg-abbott/texas-problems-voter-id-law-popped-during-earl/) > [@Politifact](#): > > Nieto also pointed out a Sept. 21, 2013, news story by KTRK-TV, Channel 13 in Houston, stating that Dorothy Card, 84, of Lufkin, had failed to present the documents needed to get a DPS ID card. State law permitted her to vote by mail, the story said, but Card said voting at the courthouse had been her Election Day routine for years. Ultimately, the story said a DPS spokesperson, not identified, had assured the station that Card would be issued an ID card without more difficulties. > [@](#): > > And of course, I add as afterthought, you’re still invited to name a politician promoting voter ID laws who is also promoting making those IDs easy to get for the whole electorate. We mustn’t forget that, of course. Sure. Just as soon as you name the person who has been unable to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4369 "2014-05-19T19:00:39Z")
**Max** : after long experience with **Bryan** , I predict he won’t acknowledge that his example was refuted. Without admitting error, he’ll shift the conversation elsewhere. Is that the kind of weaseling that you feel is appropriate to ignore? Because it’s the same kind of behavior I noted about **elucidator** before: factual assertions are rebutted and then the argument is quietly abandoned, never with an explicit admission of the error. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4370 "2014-05-19T19:03:24Z")
I see! So, you have them, right at your fingertips, just waiting for the correct moment? Can’t recall the last time you were so reluctant to prove somebody wrong. And the rest of us have to wait until **Bryan** meets your expectations? Unless, of course, you are bluffing. ETA: Oh, dear! It appears that my moral failings are crippling **Bricker** ’s capacity to make his argument. Feel kinda bad about that. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4371 "2014-05-19T19:12:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > She [hasn’t been unable to vote:](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/nov/19/greg-abbott/texas-problems-voter-id-law-popped-during-earl/) > Sure. Just as soon as you name the person who has been unable to vote. That’s a pretty disingenuous request, as presumably the person who has been unable to vote was Dorothy Card’s anonymous next-door neighbor, who didn’t try quite as hard as Dorothy, gave up after the first attempt to get the necessary IDs, and never made it into the newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4372 "2014-05-19T19:18:43Z")
Individual cherry-picked examples are diversions from the aggregate numbers, which are what are significant. [The effect on depressing turnout is about 2 percent of the total of registered voters.](http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/measuring-the-effects-of-voter-identification-laws/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) Which, as we all know but cannot all admit, is the entire fucking point. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4373 "2014-05-19T19:25:08Z")
Let’s review the conversation: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Putting aside weasel words like “slightly”, what if the number of very few people unable to cast votes is historically larger than than the number of very few known cases of voter fraud? > [@Bricker](#): > > “Unable?” > > Then I’d be extremely supportive of mandating additional resources towards removing whatever barriers were creating the inability. This would preserve the benefits of Voter ID, and almost certainly have ancillary benefits as well: life is surely difficult without ID for reasons apart from being unable to vote. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Umm… “yes?” > > Great. Got any examples of politicians who are advocating for voter ID laws who are also advocating for streamlining of the issuing of said IDs? > [@Bricker](#): > > Got any examples of people who are unable to vote? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > [Sure](http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201306/how-new-laws-are-preventing-voters-casting-their-ballot-27424). > > Now having answered your question, please answer mine. > [@Bricker](#): > > I didn’t read anything in that long article identifying anyone who was unable to vote. Please quote the text that you are relying upon that shows someone unable to vote. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, on the understanding that you won’t just turn around and say “anecdotal evidence doesn’t count.” > > There’s [Dorothy Card](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/26/2683971/dorothy-card-voter-id/), an elderly Texas woman who’s never had a problem voting before, but may do so now because she can’t get the necessary ID, despite several good-faith efforts. I realize she’s not technically been blocked from voting, simply because an election has not yet occurred since this latest round of voter-ID efforts. I expect we’ll have more anecdotes come November. > > That said, it’s not _that_ big a deal, I guess, in the larger sense. If 0.1% of the population is disenfranchised (to address a problem that perhaps occurred 0.0001% of the time), it shouldn’t affect elections any more than, say, the weather. If you’re okay with disenfranchisement of some of your fellow citizens, of course. > > And of course, I add as afterthought, you’re still invited to name a politician promoting voter ID laws who is also promoting making those IDs easy to get for the whole electorate. We mustn’t forget that, of course. > [@Bricker](#): > > She [hasn’t been unable to vote:](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/nov/19/greg-abbott/texas-problems-voter-id-law-popped-during-earl/) > > Sure. Just as soon as you name the person who has been unable to vote. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s a pretty disingenuous request, as presumably the person who has been unable to vote was Dorothy Card’s anonymous next-door neighbor, who didn’t try quite as hard as Dorothy, gave up after the first attempt to get the necessary IDs, and never made it into the newspapers. You can see, **Max** , that the entire back-and-forth with **Bryan** was focused on his claim that there was someone “unable” to vote. I asked him who that was; he provided a name; I showed that the woman he named was given an ID card. Now you come along and say that the issue was never Dorothy Card. If that’s true, why did **Bryan** name her when I asked for the name of a person who was unable to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4374 "2014-05-19T19:26:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > She [hasn’t been unable to vote:](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/nov/19/greg-abbott/texas-problems-voter-id-law-popped-during-earl/) > > Sure. Just as soon as you name the person who has been unable to vote. So everyone who can’t get voter ID just needs to get media attention until someone at the office fixes it? You’re a special kinda guy, Brickle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4375 "2014-05-19T19:30:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I see! So, you have them, right at your fingertips, just waiting for the correct moment? Can’t recall the last time you were so reluctant to prove somebody wrong. And the rest of us have to wait until **Bryan** meets your expectations? > > Unless, of course, you are bluffing. Not at all. For every person you name, I expect to be able to illustrate that a state official stepped in to resolve the situation, which is exactly what I said I’d support. So if you name Elvira Lemondrop, I’ll name the DMV supervisor who got Elvira her ID card. If you name Dorothy Cooper of Chattanooga, I’ll name Adam Kleinheider. So, please tell me who is unable to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4376 "2014-05-19T19:31:54Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So everyone who can’t get voter ID just needs to get media attention until someone at the office fixes it? You’re a special kinda guy, Brickle. If thousands of people are supposedly disenfranchised, how come you can’t name any of them?I mean, I’m not asking you to name all of the thousands. I’m not asking to name a hundred, or ten. Name one person that was unable to vote. Just the one. > [@Bricker](#): > > Got any examples of people who are unable to vote? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > [Sure](http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201306/how-new-laws-are-preventing-voters-casting-their-ballot-27424). “Sure,” he says, but it turns out that one person he named was a lie. Got any others? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4377 "2014-05-19T19:35:20Z")
(cue the sounds of goalposts, desperately moving about the field) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4378 "2014-05-19T19:52:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You can see, **Max** , that the entire back-and-forth with **Bryan** was focused on his claim that there was someone “unable” to vote. I asked him who that was; he provided a name; I showed that the woman he named was given an ID card. > > Now you come along and say that the issue was never Dorothy Card. If that’s true, why did **Bryan** name her when I asked for the name of a person who was unable to vote? At the time that article was written, the election had not yet happened, but was six weeks in the future. That article laid out the claim that voting was going to be significantly more difficult for her in the upcoming election than it had been in past elections… quite possibly so significantly more difficult that she would in fact fail to vote. So her existence is good evidence that other people exist who were in similar situations to hers. And given that people vary in their level of ability and willingness to navigate bureaucracies, it is nearly certain that there were other people for whom the additional difficulties of voting were sufficient to change them from voters to non-voters. And (and here’s the key part) there’s no reason to think that we’d have any way of knowing those people’s names. In fact, we’d expect not to. If I raise the price of donuts from .70 to .80 I’m going to sell fewer donuts. That’s how human beings work. That doesn’t mean I’ll be able to produce the name of any specific person who would have bought a donut for $.70 but now is going to pass. Therefore, I think a reasonable and non-weaselly response for Bryan would be to acknowledge that in point of fact Dorothy Card may have voted (do we in fact know that her vote was counted?), but to treat the exchange overall as positive for team-anti-voter-ID. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4379 "2014-05-19T19:55:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Any time you’re ready, Counselor. Please proceed. Every post you make is your own pitting. And I’m glad you got called on the the little game a lot of you nitwits play, that if a story comes from a right-leaning source it didn’t happen. Choke on it, you fucking dolt. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4380 "2014-05-19T20:04:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And I’m glad you got called on the the little game a lot of you nitwits play, that if a story comes from a right-leaning source it didn’t happen. Quite often that turns out to be the case, as we have seen repeatedly, indeed with tedious predictability, in the [SRIOTD thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=511831). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=218) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=220)