# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/421 "2012-06-17T15:20:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My basic position has been, and remains, that photo ID laws for voters area. Wise idea, because they will allow meaningful enforcement of anti-fraud laws. > > The general tenor of the response has been that because these laws may cause people who want to vote not to vote, they are bad. > > Since I don’t agree that they present restrictions that are too onerous, I don’t share that concern. As usual, **Bricker** - well stated, concise and accurate. And I agree. I have yet to see any logical, rational explanation from the left as to why voter ID laws are bad. All I see is them jumping up and down and yelling, “They are bad! They are, they are, they are! And you’re evil for thinking they’re good, so I win!”, and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/422 "2012-06-17T15:33:59Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > And I agree. I have yet to see any logical, rational explanation from the left as to why voter ID laws are bad. All I see is them jumping up and down and yelling, “They are bad! They are, they are, they are! And you’re evil for thinking they’re good, so I win!”, and the like. I’ve seen them say they don’t work for what is intended, yet almost every other country has these sorts of laws. It makes sense to have them. I’ve also seen them say there is no easy way for many people to get ID’s, yet 90% of the population manages it. I understand their concerns. I just think that the points they are making against having some form of ID to vote actually stop people from voting who really want to. It just takes some little ability to plan when and how to get the darned thing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/423 "2012-06-17T15:52:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let’s get this one addressed separately: > > Is that slanderous innuendo? Did I say that? > > You didn’t link it. Did I really say that? > > Or maybe I said it, but there was some context. Like, maybe, in reply to another post? > > Hmmm. So is **Ludovic** ’s line ALSO “slanderous innuendo?” Or just mine? > > And gee, why no link? Not again?! Not again with liberal hypocrisy aria? Didn’t your Momma teach you about how just because somebody else does it, doesn’t mean you become entitled to emulate? Mine did. Raised right, went wrong. Besides, you had already done it, how come it isn’t him emulating you? Didn’t say this in GD? > [@](#): > > …Gee, luci, sure seems to me like leaving all those felons and illegal aliens alone so they can vote is ALSO skewed to someone’s political advantage… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=652910&page=9](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=652910&page=9) Or this: > [@](#): > > …But if it is, yes, my response is the one I’ve already made, above. I have personally heard a CASA volunteer telling people that they didn’t need papers to vote. So you don’t need an organized effort, just a grass-roots sort of understanding in the community… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15112317&highlight=CASA#post15112317](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15112317&highlight=CASA#post15112317) Keep in mind, this was _after_ you tried to support the inference that Democrats were depending on illegal voters. When it was suggested that illegal aliens were unlikely to take such a risk, you responded with a further unsupported innuendo, to the effect that the people demonstrating for the DREAM act were, to some vague degree you couldn’t be bothered to specify…were illegal aliens, talking on TV! So, clealy, if these vast hordes of illegal aliens were demonstrating for the DREAM act, then obviously they had no fear of being caught! Of course, this was right about the time you began to find my rhetoric too dense and convoluted for your sparse vocabulary, poor dear, poor dear. So, lets put the question bluntly: do you believe that the Democrats, to any meaningful degree, actually depend upon the votes of illegal aliens and/or felons? And this is a substantial motivating factor in their resistance to these laws? Let me know if this is too dense and complicated for you, I’ll try to break it down enough for someone with seven fucking years of higher education! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/424 "2012-06-17T16:11:02Z")
PS: “Did I really say that”? Jeebus Marimba, I used the quote function! Of course you really said that! Counselor, you’re as slippery as a catfish in a barrel of motor oil! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/425 "2012-06-17T16:25:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the person were not a US citizen, they would be convicted of casting an illegal vote. If the person were a convicted felon in a state that does not permit convicted felons to vote, they would be convicted of casting an illegal vote. > > The difference between this scheme and the non-ID world is obvious: without an ID scheme, there is very little risk of a non-citizen voter being caught. With ID, there is a very good chance. There’s no greater proof in either scenario. Someone comes in claiming to be a particular person and votes. Someone comes in with an ID claiming to be a particular person and votes. There’s no difference. This prosecution bit is also still secondary to the question at hand. There’s no evidence that significant voter fraud presently occurs, and there’s no proposed voter ID card system that will meaningfully change the number of fraudulent votes. You’ve simply got nothing except some weak appeal to confidence (undone by actual studies to the contrary) and argumentum ad populum. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/426 "2012-06-17T16:44:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What are those ways? > > There are ways to catch some kinds of fraud, sure. When an alien who has overstayed his visa tries to register to vote and then votes, he can be identified. But when an alien who entered the country illegally registers, there is no Immigration list to catch him as a non-US citizen. > > But you tell me what you think these ways are. Well, I’m not an election official or legal buff, but [I also am not willing to assume that the government is _that_ incompetent](http://www.sunjournal.com/node/708778). There are safeguards in place. I mean, as said, there _have_ been voter fraud convictions in the past. It happens. Officials know how to spot it. However, it’s also simply not happening at a rate that matters, and when it _does_ happen, it gets caught. And remember, the punishment for _one extra vote_ is a jail sentence – usually not worth most people’s time. Then there’s also [this letter from an election official](http://www.savagepacer.com/opinions/letter-safeguards-already-in-place-to-prevent-voter-fraud/article_0295a910-44f3-57a8-a067-4d5d6dcd19e3.html) pointing out how impressed she is at how good the system is at catching fraud… Google is your friend, I guess? I’m not in the USA right now, but if I was, I’d call my local election official and ask them how they stop voter fraud. Why don’t _you_ do that? > [@](#): > > Post number? [#339](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15172002&postcount=339). Really should’ve ended the thread right there. > [@magellan01](#): > > Overall, I think this is a reasonable post. The bottom line for me is that we should have something in place that ensures no fraudulent voting. **But we already have that!** Again, how fucking stupid do you think the government is? …Oh wait, you’re a republican. Don’t answer that. Seriously though, we have safeguards in place to prevent and detect fraudulent voting. So far? They seem to work pretty well. Voter ID laws would probably help further, but once again, _they’re completely and utterly unnecessary_. Even if we were able to ensure that everyone got voter ID through the government, it would be something _I_ would cite as wasteful government excess – an additional fail-safe on a system which is already ridiculously well-off. Simply implementing the free ID system (not ensuring that everyone had it, just _making sure that anyone who asked for it with the necessary papers could get ID_) cost Alabama something like $900,000 – that’d be a drop in the bucket compared to the costs of ensuring that truly everyone got them. So in short: > [@](#): > > You seem fine with that, I’m not “fine” with that. I would be willing to accept it because people like you keep on buggering on about it (despite a complete lack of real motivation) if the only cost was a financial one. > [@](#): > > but want to make sure people first have the IDs. Like I said, seems reasonable. But it won’t be done. It won’t be done until its viewed as a crisis that people don’t have the IDs and _can’t_ vote. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! If it isn’t happening now in the states where this has been implemented, despite the many, _many_ complaints, it _never_ will happen. If the things going on in Wisconsin and North Carolina and the research by the Brennan Foundation won’t convince you that such voter ID laws are terrible news, nothing will. **Ever**. > [@](#): > > So I say, let’s institute both the laws now and scramble as best we can to see to it that those who need help getting the IDs can get them. If we start now, we can minimize those unable to vote in November. And virtually eliminate that happening to anyone over the next election. Okay. Why? Why, if there are already fairly convincing safeguards in place? Why, if the recorded voter fraud cases are all but non-existent? Why, if this will cost us millions of dollars for no real effect? I mean, in theory, I could agree with this. I just don’t see the point, and I also don’t see a republican house of representatives _ever_ letting the “make sure that everyone has ID” bill pass. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Okay so in this thread we have Uzi, demanding that those lazy twats should just get IDs. The fact that millions don’t have them means to him that millions are too lazy to vote. He’s what I’d call the _Pissed Off Conservative_. > > [stuff] > > So, great defense of this GOP initiative, guys. You are really doing God’s work here. I love this post. And speak of the devil… > [@Uzi](#): > > I see, you expect the government to do something rather than the parties who want these people to vote for them. …This makes all of exactly no sense. Like, seriously, what, do you want the DNC to finance fucking voter drives? Yeah, good luck with that one. > [@](#): > > Accurate? No person should vote who can’t prove who they are. Did you see the link I posted on how Canada does it? Those 10% who don’t have an ID can drag along a friend/neighbor who does have an ID to vouch for them. Simple. Well, the USA doesn’t do it that way, and with good reason. After all, no person should vote who can’t prove who you are, and those people who drag their “friends” because they don’t have ID? Their “proof” is the word of a person they know. No telling as to whether or not that person’s word is worth something. 🙂 Not seeing any cognitive dissonance here, are we? The idea that people should have to prove who they are is valid. Here’s the thing: _they did that already_. It’s called voter registration. It happens. You want to go in and vote as someone else? Well, gee, that’s a swell idea. It’s just that you have to sign your name on a legal document that clearly states that doing so is perjury and voter fraud. Then, when/if the person you are imitating shows up, and has a signature that, you know, actually is his, guess what happens to you. I’ll give you a hint: it involves the soap, and not dropping it. > [@](#): > > Did they vote before? If you want to assert “they would not matter, because they don’t vote anyways”, then it is _your_ duty to actually provide evidence for that claim. I think that a good number of them don’t vote. More than 90% of them? More than _99%_ of them (which, again, is kinda what it would take)? Eh… I don’t think voter apathy is that high, even among those who don’t have ID. I’m going to assume that voter apathy is at the same, or a slightly higher rate (read: 1-1.5x as high) as within the general public. Got evidence to support your assertion? Great. Put it up. And while you’re at it, provide evidence that they also don’t _plan_ to vote in the future. …Oh, you can’t? Great. Then stop making this baseless fucking assertion. > [@](#): > > So, the Republicans will be in power forever? Le sigh. Point = missed. Completely. > [@](#): > > Gee, I’ve already mentioned it. An enterprising political party would investiage the requirements and arrange to get the forms for an ID to the people who need them. They would arrange transportation. They would help these people. You seem to be under the impression that this should not be handled by the government. Can I ask why? > [@](#): > > Which every other country does now. You need an ID. Simple. Using it to vote is one of all the other useful things you can do with it. How many of those have a system in place to ensure that everyone has ID? I mean, yeah, I’m not gonna complain about the German system, but here’s the thing: the system works, and everyone has ID, largely in part because Germany isn’t anywhere _near_ as laissez-faire as the USA is. You literally cannot quit school before 10th grade (where you get your first official graduation degree of the lower levels of highschool) unless you have a damn good reason to. The government keeps very close tabs on its citizens. If you don’t show up for class, and your parents can’t account for where you are, the school calls the cops. If you move to a different place, the government knows about it. You are legally obliged to have photo ID at any given time. Et cetera. The comparison to other countries just doesn’t work, because the American system isn’t geared that way. It’s like saying to your wife, “Well, John is able to spend every day at the golf course, so I should be allowed to as well” without recognizing that John is a professional golfer (who, by the way, makes about 10 times as much money each year as you) who has his entire life geared around golfing. You can point to other countries and say, “Look, they have voter ID laws!”, but it’s ignoring the big picture and things such as: – The _extreme_ libertarian streak that pretty much only the USA has in the western world – The distance to which other countries go to ensure that everyone has photo ID – The number of people in the USA who simply lack voter ID – The uniquely huge American lower class and the difficulties involved in allowing them to vote > [@](#): > > Saying voting is held on Monday, a month from now is neither. Yes, but removing an existing statute which is known to help primarily minorities and lower-class citizens for no stated or apparent reason is a pretty clear issue. > [@](#): > > You keep offering excuses as if they are deal breakers. Some small portion of the population will have a problem complying. Most will not. I don’t even know how you can get a job without ID let alone vote. It’s because your SSN isn’t valid ID for these photo ID laws. Which, as I pointed out back in post 339, is just fucking retarded. And you know what’s funny? My “excuses”? These little things? They add up. You need voter ID, _and_ you can’t vote on Sunday any more, _and_ the organizations that help take you to the polls or help you register to vote got kneecapped, _and_ DMVs are getting shut down in blue areas, _and_ early voting is being shortened further and further (giving people less and less chances to find the time to make it down there), _and_ polling stations are getting more and more overcrowded… Also, do you want to explain how absentee ballots work with photo ID? … Hang on. Absentee Ballots. How the fuck does voter ID law work with them? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/427 "2012-06-17T17:39:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Okay so in this thread we have Uzi, demanding that those lazy twats should just get IDs. The fact that millions don’t have them means to him that millions are too lazy to vote. He’s what I’d call the _Pissed Off Conservative_. > > We have Magellan, who’s just dim and pretty much echos anything he hears that’s right-ish. He’s what I’d call the _Simple Answers Conservative_. > > We have Emacknight, who I think is suffering from a bad case of the _libertarians_. He wants people to take responsibility and get IDs. So he’s the _Ayn Rand Memorial Spank Bank Conservative_. > > We’ve got Bricker, who is smart enough to know the rest of it is bullshit, but is largely amoral and uncaring about anyone that isn’t in his immediate circle. And he didn’t need no government helping him! So Bricker is a _Successful Without Any Help Conservative_. > > It’s like birdwatching. But instead of shitting on your car, they shit all over American ideals. > > So, great defense of this GOP initiative, guys. You are really doing God’s work here. You are my hero!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/428 "2012-06-17T17:51:01Z")
Welp, as divorced from reality as Uzi and Bricker often are… > [@From another forum I frequent](#): > > My concern is that there is a democratic machine that, when short on votes, takes those legally on the rolls that never voted, and “votes” on their behalf. That is among the sort of thing I want curbed. It could be worse. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/429 "2012-06-17T18:06:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > There’s no greater proof in either scenario. Someone comes in claiming to be a particular person and votes. Someone comes in with an ID claiming to be a particular person and votes. There’s no difference. Um… Bwahahahahahaha! Of course there’s a difference. With no ID system, there’s no evidence for a jury to rely on. With an ID system, there is evidence that the person claiming to be Ramon Cue of 656 Edgemere Drive presented a valid ID with a photo matching that name and address. In a bad check case, a check accepted with no ID can’t be prosecuted unless the utterer can be identified. A check taken with a notation of photo ID can be prosecuted even if the acceptor doesn’t remember the utterer. What the hell do you mean, there’s no difference?? It’s only the difference between legally sufficient evidence and no evidence at all. > [@](#): > > This prosecution bit is also still secondary to the question at hand. There’s no evidence that significant voter fraud presently occurs, and there’s no proposed voter ID card system that will meaningfully change the number of fraudulent votes. Of course there’s no evidence: it’s virtually impossible to prove a case for non-citizens voting unless they’re already in INS files. But fortunately, I didn’t base my argument on the presence of existing fraud, so you’re not rebutting me by declaring that no fraud exists now. > [@](#): > > You’ve simply got nothing except some weak appeal to confidence (undone by actual studies to the contrary) and argumentum ad populum. Well, I did point out precisely where those studies failed to address the point I was making. But I have something else on my side: the actual voter ID laws, enacted and working. As long as I have that, I’m happy to let you babble impotently about how evil I am. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/430 "2012-06-17T18:13:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, I’m not an election official or legal buff, but [I also am not willing to assume that the government is _that_ incompetent](http://www.sunjournal.com/node/708778). There are safeguards in place. I mean, as said, there _have_ been voter fraud convictions in the past. It happens. Officials know how to spot it. However, it’s also simply not happening at a rate that matters, and when it _does_ happen, it gets caught. And remember, the punishment for _one extra vote_ is a jail sentence – usually not worth most people’s time. Then there’s also [this letter from an election official](http://www.savagepacer.com/opinions/letter-safeguards-already-in-place-to-prevent-voter-fraud/article_0295a910-44f3-57a8-a067-4d5d6dcd19e3.html) pointing out how impressed she is at how good the system is at catching fraud… Google is your friend, I guess? I’m not in the USA right now, but if I was, I’d call my local election official and ask them how they stop voter fraud. Why don’t _you_ do that? I have. And my elections official told me there s virtually no way to catch someone who votes illegally without an ID system in place. And your letter writer simply says she’s confident no one would risk a felony conviction to vote, but doesn’t acknowledge how difficult it would be to get a conviction. So your argument is, in effect, that you have no idea how they might catch such people, but you’re just sure there must be a way. That’s the fallacy of argument from ignorance: we don’t know it, so it must be true. That’s not how it works. You make a claim, you have to defend it. > [@](#): > > Absentee Ballots. > > How the fuck does voter ID law work with them? Ideally, your ID is shown when you register and the ballot is mailed to your address of record. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/431 "2012-06-17T18:20:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …That’s not how it works. You make a claim, you have to defend it… However, the **Bricker Doctrine** permits you to insinuate, imply, and otherwise suggest something you couldn’t defend to save your very soul. Well, “permits you” is a bit off, it permits _him_ to do so. _You_ have to prove what you say. Shall we try again? > [@](#): > > …So, lets put the question bluntly: do you believe that the Democrats, to any meaningful degree, actually depend upon the votes of illegal aliens and/or felons? And this is a substantial motivating factor in their resistance to these laws?.. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/432 "2012-06-17T18:25:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I have something else on my side: the actual voter ID laws, enacted and working. Quite a remarkable statement from someone who has made clear that _there’s no way to know_ if they’re working. :rolleyes: But we do know if they’re suppressing participation in democracy or not. They are, and that would be what you’re so proud of. What a fucking dishonest, amoral, destructive shitbag … ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/433 "2012-06-17T18:44:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’ve also seen them say there is no easy way for many people to get ID’s, yet 90% of the population manages it. 90% of the people could pay a poll tax, too. But poll taxes were found to be an unconstitutional barrier to voting for the poor. But if we dress up a poll tax, call it a voter ID, we can fuck these same people right in the ass and pat ourselves on the back with self-righteousness. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/434 "2012-06-17T18:47:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have. And my elections official told me there s virtually no way to catch someone who votes illegally without an ID system in place. And your letter writer simply says she’s confident no one would risk a felony conviction to vote, but doesn’t acknowledge how difficult it would be to get a conviction. > > So your argument is, in effect, that you have no idea how they might catch such people, but you’re just sure there must be a way. > > That’s the fallacy of argument from ignorance: we don’t know it, so it must be true. > > That’s not how it works. You make a claim, you have to defend it. Well, here’s the thing. In order to vote (fraudulently or not), you need to be (or be impersonating) someone on the voter rolls. Sure, if you just show up, claim to be someone you’re not, and vote under their name, you may get away with it. But… what happens if the person you’re claiming to be shows up to vote? Yeah. For one extra vote, you get a federal criminal record. And rest assured, just because you could potentially get away with murder, doesn’t mean that people are doing it left and right. Look, I _don’t_ know how investigations into voter fraud work. You know what I do know, though? That there have been investigations into the issue, on large scales, and that there _have_ been convictions. You’d think, if there was no way of actually investigating the issue, this wouldn’t happen. I’ll gladly try to do a little more research into the subject, but I reject the notion that _everyone_, from the government for setting up such an abusable system, to the Brennan Center for not bringing up how it’s impossible to prove voter fraud, to local governments all over the place for spending time and resources looking in to the issue, could possibly be that dumb. > [@](#): > > Ideally, your ID is shown when you register and the ballot is mailed to your address of record. So… This doesn’t do anything at all to help ensure that absentee ballots are not fraudulent. Huh. I wonder… Do absentee ballots have a tendency to swing republican? Yeah, I’m sure that that’s just a coincidence. After all, it’s not like a large portion of them happen to come from soldiers, and soldiers are a primarily republican demographic. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/435 "2012-06-17T22:34:15Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You need an ID. Simple. Not in your country of residence. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/436 "2012-06-17T22:43:37Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Welp, as divorced from reality as Uzi and Bricker often are… Divorced from reality like the rest of the world that requires an ID? Noooo, I’m pretty sure there is only one group here who is divorced from reality. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/437 "2012-06-17T22:44:51Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Not in your country of residence. I live in Hong Kong. I have to use my ID for all sorts of things. I’ve already shown what you need to do to vote in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/438 "2012-06-17T22:55:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Um… Bwahahahahahaha! > > Of course there’s a difference. With no ID system, there’s no evidence for a jury to rely on. With an ID system, there is evidence that the person claiming to be Ramon Cue of 656 Edgemere Drive presented a valid ID with a photo matching that name and address. In a bad check case, a check accepted with no ID can’t be prosecuted unless the utterer can be identified. A check taken with a notation of photo ID can be prosecuted even if the acceptor doesn’t remember the utterer. > > What the hell do you mean, there’s no difference?? It’s only the difference between legally sufficient evidence and no evidence at all. > > Of course there’s no evidence: it’s virtually impossible to prove a case for non-citizens voting unless they’re already in INS files. But fortunately, I didn’t base my argument on the presence of existing fraud, so you’re not rebutting me by declaring that no fraud exists now. > > Well, I did point out precisely where those studies failed to address the point I was making. > > But I have something else on my side: the actual voter ID laws, enacted and working. > > As long as I have that, I’m happy to let you babble impotently about how evil I am. I never said you were evil. I said you were a douchenozzle and a dimwit. And those still stand. I’ve really been impressed with how facile and childish your arguments on this topic have been. I have previously overestimated your intelligence. Thank you for setting me straight on that account. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/439 "2012-06-17T23:07:59Z")
You kidding? Have any idea how much intelligence it takes to construct such rationalizations? The complexity of interwoven half-truths? There’s no trick to making a silk purse out of silk, telling the truth is easy! ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/440 "2012-06-17T23:21:55Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > They seem to work pretty well. Voter ID laws would probably help further, but once again, _they’re completely and utterly unnecessary_. And useful for so many other reasons. > [@](#): > > …This makes all of exactly no sense. Like, seriously, what, do you want the DNC to finance fucking voter drives? Yeah, good luck with that one. It makes no sense that people can go to a political party to get information on their political system and how to interact with it or to navigate through the labyrinth that is the government? WTF!? > [@](#): > > Well, the USA doesn’t do it that way, and with good reason. After all, no person should vote who can’t prove who you are, and those people who drag their “friends” because they don’t have ID? Their “proof” is the word of a person they know. No telling as to whether or not that person’s word is worth something. 🙂 Not seeing any cognitive dissonance here, are we? Their friend has to provide ID before they can vouch for anyone and they can only do it for one person. > [@](#): > > And while you’re at it, provide evidence that they also don’t _plan_ to vote in the future. Evidence: They can’t be bothered to fill the basic requirements of voting - prove who you are with a satisfactory ID or equivalent. Something easily done. Something that everyone else does in the world. > [@](#): > > You seem to be under the impression that this should not be handled by the government. Can I ask why? Why should the government pay for your ID? You’re the one claiming you are more ‘laissez-faire’ than the rest of us. That pretty much means you pay your own way. Well either you are or you aren’t. > [@](#): > > …system, but here’s the thing: the system works, and everyone has ID, largely in part because Germany isn’t anywhere _near_ as laissez-faire as the USA is. In Canada you need an ID or equivalent. We are more like the US than Germany. > [@](#): > > – The _extreme_ libertarian streak that pretty much only the USA has in the western world So, the 90% of people in your country who have ID’s aren’t ‘Libertarian’? > [@](#): > > – The distance to which other countries go to ensure that everyone has photo ID Unproven. I have to get my own ID in Canada. > [@](#): > > – The number of people in the USA who simply lack voter ID Excuse > [@](#): > > – The uniquely huge American lower class and the difficulties involved in allowing them to vote Again unproven that being poor means you are incapable of getting an ID. > [@](#): > > … the organizations that help take you to the polls or help you register to vote got kneecapped, … In Canada these organizations are called ‘political parties’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=23)