# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 221
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4401 "2014-05-20T00:21:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Bryan, seems you’re making Bricker’s point again. Improper voting is a trivial-to-near-nonexistent problem. We should accept this as a given, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. > > The voter ID concern, on the other hand, is a potentially significant one, one that might prevent someone from from voting–and apparently we needn’t worry about any evidence that supports such a concern. We should also accept this as a given. > > How is this not supporting exactly what Bricker pointed out as the non sequitur in your argument? Because there is no evidence of wide-spread in-person voter fraud, despite people looking. We can agree on that, right? There are however many eligible voters without IDs. That’s also a fact. According to NPR: [ > [@NPR](#): > > By all estimates, those least likely to have a government-issued photo ID fall into one of four categories: the elderly, minorities, the poor and young adults aged 18 to 24. The Brennan Center estimates that 18 percent of all seniors and 25 percent of African-Americans don’t have picture IDs. ]([Why New Photo ID Laws Mean Some Won't Vote : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote)) Even if those numbers are high, you’ll grant that some people don’t have the requisite IDs, right? Not having an ID, especially when poor or old, means spending a fair amount of effort to get one. This acts as a disincentive to vote. If Dems created a law that made likely GOP voters spend five hours on some tedious task to get to the point where they can vote, fewer would vote, right? Obviously it’s possible for any individual to vote. But the roadblocks will discourage some. All to combat a problem that as far as we can tell, _virtually doesn’t exist_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4402 "2014-05-20T00:33:13Z")
Your supposed “memory” issues arise again, **elucidator**. Here is the sequence of conversation: > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Putting aside weasel words like “slightly”, what if the number of very few people unable to cast votes is historically larger than than the number of very few known cases of voter fraud? > [@Bricker](#): > > “Unable?” > > Then I’d be extremely supportive of mandating additional resources towards removing whatever barriers were creating the inability. This would preserve the benefits of Voter ID, and almost certainly have ancillary benefits as well: life is surely difficult without ID for reasons apart from being unable to vote. See? IF…THEN. IF there are people unable to cast votes, THEN I’d be extremely supportive of mandating additional resources towards removing whatever barriers were creating the inability. Now you want to demand the names of the politicians providing those additional resources without first identifying the names of the people unable to vote. Did you “forget” that exchange? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4403 "2014-05-20T00:33:22Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Bryan, seems you’re making Bricker’s point again. Improper voting is a trivial-to-near-nonexistent problem. We should accept this as a given, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. > > The voter ID concern, on the other hand, is a potentially significant one, one that might prevent someone from from voting–and apparently we needn’t worry about any evidence that supports such a concern. We should also accept this as a given. > > How is this not supporting exactly what Bricker pointed out as the non sequitur in your argument? Well, judges in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Texas had blocked or overturned voter ID laws on the basis of the burdens they pose to voters (you know, _actual real_ voters), so I feel confident that I’m not just making shit up here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4404 "2014-05-20T00:36:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because there is no evidence of wide-spread in-person voter fraud, despite people looking. We can agree on that, right? > > There are however many eligible voters without IDs. That’s also a fact. According to NPR: [url=[Why New Photo ID Laws Mean Some Won't Vote : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote)] > > Even if those numbers are high, you’ll grant that some people don’t have the requisite IDs, right? > > Not having an ID, especially when poor or old, means spending a fair amount of effort to get one. This acts as a disincentive to vote. If Dems created a law that made likely GOP voters spend five hours on some tedious task to get to the point where they can vote, fewer would vote, right? > > Obviously it’s possible for any individual to vote. But the roadblocks will discourage some. All to combat a problem that as far as we can tell, _virtually doesn’t exist_. Really? The Brennan Center? NPR? Notorious liars, one and all. I for one refuse to believe anything they say. Unless you come up with another, reasonable proof. Then I’ll pretend I never said the above. #LearnedRhetoricFromElucidator ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4405 "2014-05-20T00:40:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really? The Brennan Center? NPR? Notorious liars, one and all. I for one refuse to believe anything they say. > > Unless you come up with another, reasonable proof. Then I’ll pretend I never said the above. > > #LearnedRhetoricFromElucidator If you have time, can I have your honest rebuttal? #brickersgonnabrick ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4406 "2014-05-20T00:44:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > IF there are people unable to cast votes, THEN I’d be extremely supportive of mandating additional resources towards removing whatever barriers were creating the inability. Great. Got any examples of politicians who are advocating for voter ID laws who are also advocating for streamlining of the issuing of said IDs? Ooops, I already asked that. > [@](#): > > Now you want to demand the names of the politicians providing those additional resources without first identifying the names of the people unable to vote. > > Did you “forget” that exchange? I don’t know about “demand”, but it would certainly be helpful to know if some politicians advocating for extra burdens put on voters had put some thought toward allocating resources to make those burdens as light as possible. It would give some indication that they had honest concerns about the integrity of elections (i.e. the votes should be fair even if they don’t go our way), even in they were misguidedly and wastefully addressing a near-nonexistent problem. You seem to have an awful lot of trust in the people claiming a significant problem exists and that photo IDs for voters will solve it _without creating more problems._ To me this suggest a rather shocking naïveté (including ignorance of historical efforts at strategic disenfranchisement) or possibly a deep disingenuity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4407 "2014-05-20T00:45:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, judges in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Texas had blocked or overturned voter ID laws on the basis of the burdens they pose to voters (you know, _actual real_ voters), so I feel confident that I’m not just making shit up here. And other judges in those states, and other states, have disagreed. So…? Why are those judges you mention the ones we should be listening to? How about we listen to the final judgement in each state? Otherwise, you pick the favorable and ignore the unfavorable. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4408 "2014-05-20T00:50:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you have time, can I have your honest rebuttal? #brickersgonnabrick It’s funny. Why does **elucidator** get to do his stuff without someone demanding that he respond honestly, and meanwhile everyone spends post after post announcing how disingenuous I am, and what a liar I am… but when I actually do make a (clearly identified) lying post, there’s no hesitation in asking me to respond honestly. Seems to me if you folks truly believed I was so dishonest, the request you make above would never be made; you’d know it was useless. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4409 "2014-05-20T00:58:42Z")
But its not my case that people are being denied. Its my case that they are being deliberately impeded. How many times I gotta say that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4410 "2014-05-20T00:59:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Seems to me if you folks truly believed I was so dishonest, the request you make above would never be made; you’d know it was useless. > > Why is that? Like second marriages, the triumph of hope over experience. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4411 "2014-05-20T01:01:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s funny. Why does **elucidator** get to do his stuff without someone demanding that he respond honestly, and meanwhile everyone spends post after post announcing how disingenuous I am, and what a liar I am… but when I actually do make a (clearly identified) lying post, there’s no hesitation in asking me to respond honestly. Because 'luci was being silly. You, however, are attempting to pretend you’re a serious debater, and not a partisan ideologue. You certainly seem disingenuous, since you spend your time obfuscating instead of engaging. The very post I’m responding to, is little more than an attempt to make your failed arguments take a backseat to the 'luci and the WAPO. You want to solve a problem that you say impacts voter confidence, by causing a larger problem, that would cause a larger impact to voter confidence. If you’re not being disingenuous, you’re too blinded by your ideology to be able to think about this clearly. > [@](#): > > Seems to me if you folks truly believed I was so dishonest, the request you make above would never be made; you’d know it was useless. > > Why is that? Because you pretend to be honest, and as more and more people see what a facade that is, I am tickled. \<3 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4412 "2014-05-20T01:03:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Even if those numbers are high, you’ll grant that some people don’t have the requisite IDs, right? Yes, those numbers seem high, but yes: I grant that the number is certainly not zero. > [@](#): > > Not having an ID, especially when poor or old, means spending a fair amount of effort to get one. This acts as a disincentive to vote. If Dems created a law that made likely GOP voters spend five hours on some tedious task to get to the point where they can vote, fewer would vote, right? > > Obviously it’s possible for any individual to vote. But the roadblocks will discourage some. All to combat a problem that as far as we can tell, _virtually doesn’t exist_. Yes, I agree it acts as a disincentive to vote. But I contend it’s a small burden, a small disincentive, and acts on a small number of voters. Meanwhile, I think there are illegal votes cast, because people know that they can do so with impunity. In most cases, the number of votes thus cast are not a danger to the result. In very close elections, however, they can be enough to call the result into question. Florida in 2000. Washington State in 2006. Indiana Eighth in 1984. Assurances that votes cast can be reliably prosecuted if they are fraudulent is an excellent disincentive to cast them, and that, in turn, is sufficient good for the scheme to exist. That’s what I say. So does the US Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4413 "2014-05-20T01:05:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because 'luci was being silly. You, however, are attempting to pretend you’re a serious debater, and not a partisan ideologue. And my inclusion of the hash tag? I guess I messed up there, huh? I was a perfect disguise until I ruined my dishonesty by leaving the clue for eagle-eyed observers such as you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4414 "2014-05-20T01:06:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But its not my case that people are being denied. Its my case that they are being deliberately impeded. How many times I gotta say that? You’re not the only person making claims here. I have addressed your claim of disincentives above, in post 4412. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4415 "2014-05-20T01:13:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And my inclusion of the hash tag? I guess I messed up there, huh? I was a perfect disguise until I ruined my dishonesty by leaving the clue for eagle-eyed observers such as you. I meant in general. Didn’t you notice my hashtag? Bro, do you even lift? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4416 "2014-05-20T01:15:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I meant in general. Didn’t you notice my hashtag? Bro, do you even lift? In general. I see. So in general, **elucidator** gets a pass because he is just being silly? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4417 "2014-05-20T01:42:21Z")
Well, my warmth, charm and astonishing resemblance to George Clooney may be factors. Or it could just as easily be that nobody particularly likes me but they can’t _stand_ you. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4418 "2014-05-20T01:47:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why does the need for state employees to go extra miles seem reasonable to you? How many extra miles do you think state employees have, anyway? Because no matter how good the requirements gathering was to create the Use cases, there will always be an exception that someone has to go outside of the established processes and procedures to address. As for how many miles, as many as it takes. That’s their job and everyone else’s job on the planet: to problem solve. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4419 "2014-05-20T02:06:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And other judges in those states, and other states, have disagreed. > > So…? Why are those judges you mention the ones we should be listening to? You can listen to whoever you want. The sole point is that my objections are not as “non-sequitor” as Stratocaster suggested. I have judges who object to voter ID laws, you have judges that don’t. I guess we’ll see the effect, if any, come November. > [@Uzi](#): > > Because no matter how good the requirements gathering was to create the Use cases, there will always be an exception that someone has to go outside of the established processes and procedures to address. As for how many miles, as many as it takes. That’s their job and everyone else’s job on the planet: to problem solve. Why not just make it easier and not create the problem in the first place? I lack confidence the gathering efforts were all that good, but I’m open to evidence of a politician who says something along the lines of “We should mandate picture ID for voters, and here’s my detailed plan to make these IDs available to every voter at no or minimal cost or burden to them, including the elderly who no longer have driver’s licenses, married women who may have identifying documents under their maiden and married names, and recently-sworn citizens. Further, I move we establish an independent agency with the sole and primary purpose of maintaining voter roles with the greatest accuracy possible.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4420 "2014-05-20T02:08:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Meanwhile, I think there are illegal votes cast, because people know that they can do so with impunity. Yes, that explains why there are so many comic-book villains that use vote-stealing as their motif. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=220) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=222)