# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 229
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4561 "2014-05-21T16:57:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True. > > Although the real issue is ratios. An election of 232,000 total votes decided by a margin of four votes – as happened in the Indiana Eighth in 1984 – is in precisely the same position. That’s not how I read it - you said: > [@](#): > > Normally, who cares? Two hundred votes out of three million means nothing. It’s almost zero. > > But when those three million votes create a near-tie, THAT’S when the issue becomes of paramount importance. The closeness of the election is almost an afterthought. It’s the presumption of 200 out of three million that I’m prepared to bet against, regardless of whether or not the election is a squeaker or a blowout. > [@](#): > > There’s no way to determine who cast votes in the Indiana Eighth in 1984. Only four votes switching sides changes the result. How can you say, with confidence, that there were not four illegal votes cast? Heck, I can’t say with confidence that four _thousand_ votes weren’t uncounted or miscounted for technical reasons or human error on the part of election officials through no fault whatsoever of the voters who cast in good faith (Wikipedia: “but more than 4,800 ballots were not recounted for technical reasons”). A literal handful of votes potentially being illegal is way down the priority list. > [@Bricker](#): > > Why would a prosecutor waste time indicting cases he cannot prove? To inspire voter confidence. Duh. > [@](#): > > But you haven’t! Your entire offer turns my word on its head: my whole point was that without Voter ID, criminal sanctions are simply not feasible. Now you come along and say, “Oh, yeah? Well, let’s see how many criminal sanctions happen!” > > Very very few. That’s MY point. What is this, you have to pass the law so you can find out what’s in it? You’re presuming a problem exists on the scale of 200 out of three million, and then using that presumption to justify a law. How about _proving_ the problem exists first, and to the degree to which you have speculated? And if you _can’t_ prove it, then what the hell are you talking about? Anyway, I’ll just assume the bet is declined. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4562 "2014-05-21T17:00:21Z")
Let’s stop IRS audits. If we did that, there would be no tax fraud that we could detect. Which means that there is no tax fraud! Then if someone wants to reinstate IRS audits, we’ll just say, “Prove there’s been tax fraud since the audits stopped!” You won’t be able to. Bricker’s point is that without an ID requirement, you can’t successfully prosecute people for voter fraud. Which to me is beside the point. I believe most illegal votes are cast by mistake. The system should be able to prevent such mistakes, or failing that, to account for them by eliminating recounts and just calling close elections a tie. If you have 500 felon votes, it doesn’t really matter whether they intentionally broke the law, what matters is that they voted and their votes should not count. Same goes for all the double voters who vote absentee and in person in two different states. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4563 "2014-05-21T17:07:31Z")
Since I feel no incentive to dignify your dumbassery with a thoughtful response, adaher, I’ll just pick this out: > [@adaher](#): > > Bricker’s point is that without an ID requirement, you can’t successfully prosecute people for voter fraud. At the moment, Bricker’s point seem to be that he believes voter fraud is happening on a potentially significant scale, so better make it illegal\* just in case\*, and regardless of the effect on legitimate voters. If they aren’t doing anything illegal, they’ve got nothing to worry about, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4564 "2014-05-21T17:08:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I believe most illegal votes are cast by mistake. Based on anything factual at all? What? > [@](#): > > just calling close elections a tie. What would be the ramifications of that, tool? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4565 "2014-05-21T17:10:27Z")
**Bricker** , you complain that some Dopers don’t understand your points. Let me see if I do. > [@Bricker](#): > > My argument in this thread is not about “all GOP vote-suppression malice.” I am arguing in favor of laws that generally require a government-issued photo ID in order to cast a ballot. > > I am not arguing in favor of reduced voting hours, purging voter rolls, or poking voters with sharp sticks as they wait in line to vote. I am arguing in support of Voter ID laws. Someone starts a thread to Pit GOP vote-suppression, with malicious voter ID laws as an example, and your point, obvious but non sequitur, can be summarized as [QUOTE=Hypothetical (more laconic version of) Bricker] BTW, it would be possible for a party – though certainly not the present-day GOP – to design a voter ID program to solve non-existent problems, without the malicious features of GOP plans. I’d welcome another thread to help design such a program, however purposeless, since such things fascinate me. I do realize it has no relevance whatsoever in _this_ thread. [/QUOTE] Instead, what do we get? [QUOTE=Post-counting Robot] Who Posted? Total Posts: 4,560 User Name Posts Bricker 1,007 elucidator 674 Lobohan 350 Uzi 195 … [/QUOTE] One thousand and seven (1007) posts to make the obvious and irrelevant point that some hypothetical non-malicious party could have designed a non-malicious program to solve a non-existent problem. In a Pit thread about Monica’s semen-stained dress, would you hijack to discuss dry-cleaning? Or the advantages of using condoms? Wow. 1007 posts. > [@Bricker](#): > > No… > No… > No… > No… Wow. My questions were intended as a sanity-check, like asking about 2+2. Now I wonder if your rose-colored glasses blind you to GOP perfidy, or whether your denials come with some implicit legalism. (e.g., “no crime is committed unless proven in a court of law.”) Given that you were unaware of Karl Rove’s nearly-criminal trickery, described in mainstream media two decades ago, I’ll guess the former. You’re a sincere, possibly even good-spirited, conservative who has willfully blinded yourself to the present-day GOP. But then again … 1,007 posts? I hope it won’t offend if I suggest psychiatric help. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4566 "2014-05-21T17:10:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That’s not how I read it - you said: > The closeness of the election is almost an afterthought. It’s the presumption of 200 out of three million that I’m prepared to bet against, regardless of whether or not the election is a squeaker or a blowout. The problem with proving that presumption is that: > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > And (and here’s the key part) there’s no reason to think that we’d have any way of knowing those people’s names. In fact, we’d expect not to. Of course, **MaxTheVool** was describing another issue…but with the same problem. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Why would a prosecutor waste time indicting cases he cannot prove? > > To inspire voter confidence. Duh. Indicting people that don’t ever get convicted is the opposite of creating confidence. It shows ineffectual sanctions and re-inforces the narrative that illegally voting carries little risk. > [@](#): > > What is this, you have to pass the law so you can find out what’s in it? You’re presuming a problem exists on the scale of 200 out of three million, and then using that presumption to justify a law. How about _proving_ the problem exists first, and to the degree to which you have speculated? And if you _can’t_ prove it, then what the hell are you talking about? Nope. When did the rule become that someone has to prove something before passing a law? There’s one group that has to be convinced: the legislators. Not you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4567 "2014-05-21T17:13:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > But then again … 1,007 posts? I hope it won’t offend if I suggest psychiatric help. I see that your argument is still resting on solid grounds. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4568 "2014-05-21T17:13:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Based on anything factual at all? What? Based on defendants’ own explanations when they get caught and indicted. And usually acquitted. > [@](#): > > What would be the ramifications of that, tool? > > 😃 You wouldn’t have divisive recounts where the losing side feels cheated. And which aren’t any more accurate than the original count. Recounts are a pointless waste of money, because it’s just a different count, not a more accurate count. They should be ended. Either the first result should be final, or the election should be declared a tie and a runoff held. Since most close elections involve no candidate winning a majority, a runoff between the top two candidates is entirely reasonable and would usually produce a clearer result. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4569 "2014-05-21T17:18:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope. When did the rule become that someone has to prove something before passing a law? There’s one group that has to be convinced: the legislators. Not you. Ah, so we’re back to the “plenary power” thing, huh? In that case, I hope we’ll see no further references to the Massachusetts Senate-appointment issue from you. The Mass. legislature (apparently) has the power to modify the rules of who gets to appoint a Senate replacement, so who are _you_ to suggest we should criticize them for exercising that power at their discretion? Why do you hate democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4570 "2014-05-21T17:25:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Ah, so we’re back to the “plenary power” thing, huh? In that case, I hope we’ll see no further references to the Massachusetts Senate-appointment issue from you. The Mass. legislature (apparently) has the power to modify the rules of who gets to appoint a Senate replacement, so who are _you_ to suggest we should criticize them for exercising that power at their discretion? Why do you hate democracy? Sure they have that power. The only time I bring it up is to respond to others’ “outrage” at the use of legislative power to achieve political ends. Someone posts a pious objection to the use of legislative power to achieve political advantage, and I point out that their objections seem curiously limited. That’s all. My own objection is much less dramatic. I think it sucks, but ultimately the power to fix it rests with Massachusetts voters, and they don’t seem discomfited, so I’m OK with it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4571 "2014-05-21T17:32:55Z")
Asa Hutchinson, GOP candidate for governor of Arkansas and a staunch voter-ID proponent, [was not allowed to vote because he forgot his ID](http://www.salon.com/2014/05/21/arkansas_gop_candidates_voter_id_humiliation/). N.B.: It’s not quite that bad, he was turned away from early-voting Monday but was allowed to vote on Tuesday. Still, since his camp also wants to eliminate early voting . . . ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4572 "2014-05-21T17:35:15Z")
Which I’m sure is a basic right, being able to vote early. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4573 "2014-05-21T17:39:56Z")
I’d be ok with the abolition of early voting, extended hours, and absentee voting as long as legislation is passed that employers must give employees a reasonable amount of paid time off in order to vote (this is the law in Canada so it is doable). Think of how much more confidence there would be in the results when we do away with the fraud associated with absentee ballots. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4574 "2014-05-21T17:41:45Z")
You know, why don’t we just have the Canadians write our election laws? They seem to have the sanest system for voting. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4575 "2014-05-21T17:43:46Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I’d be ok with the abolition of early voting, extended hours, and absentee voting as long as legislation is passed that employers must give employees a reasonable amount of paid time off in order to vote (this is the law in Canada so it is doable). That would still allow too many of the wrong sort of people to vote. No doubt Bricker can come up with a “valid, neutral justification”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4576 "2014-05-21T17:44:42Z")
Actually, I think that law would improve Republican turnout, seeing as how Republicans have jobs that might keep them away from the polls. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4577 "2014-05-21T17:47:36Z")
Keep dancing, clown! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4578 "2014-05-21T18:08:12Z")
Oh, and **Uzi**? I see you’re taking your time. Good, get it right. Schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4579 "2014-05-21T18:11:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You know, why don’t we just have the Canadians write our election laws? They seem to have the sanest system for voting. [You are occasionally right.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Stopped_clock) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/4580 "2014-05-21T18:12:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Actually, I think that law would improve Republican turnout, seeing as how Republicans have jobs that might keep them away from the polls. If it does improve Republican turnout **as well,** so much the better! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=228) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=230)