# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/481 "2012-06-19T18:53:15Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What, exactly, are we trying to prove that is unprovable? That many people have trouble at the DMV? That getting voter ID, even “free” voter ID, can be extremely costly to poorer citizens? > > \*\*You’re trying to prove voter fraud doesn’t happen, primarily because we have no means to detect it if it ever did. Understand? > \*\* > > It doesn’t have to never be available. It just has to be, say, 30 miles away and/or excessively overcrowded. How close is your closest DMV? What percentage of people do you think live within walking distance of one? > > **This response was to the poor working class advocate who holds three jobs that couldn’t possibly entertain or even think about a trip to the DMV, not ever for a driver’s license. How would that person find the time to vote?** > Lol. Yeah, that’s a great idea, let’s assume (_after_ dozens of investigations, mind you) that there’s no actual way to investigate voter fraud, a felony. > > Wrong, as already pointed out. > > Well, 11-12% of the populace doesn’t have photo ID. How many of them do you think don’t have it because it is a real problem for them to acquire it? > > Better question. What number is inexcusable for you? 5%? Is that not okay? What about 1%? 0.1%? > > \*\ ***How much voter fraud are you ok with? The real issue isn’t the fact that it’s a pain to get it, it’s how much of a pain it ends up being. Too much pain, we change the rules a bit, ok?** > How the heck did they make it past the registration booth? O.o > > \*\*Good question, maybe one that could be answered if they were required to show ID eh? > \*\* > > Does it have to be virtually impossible, though? At what point does it become a hindrance to democracy? **Bolded my answers** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/482 "2012-06-19T19:01:48Z")
> [@](#): > > …Too much pain, we change the rules a bit, ok?.. After the elections, of course. After the Republicans bring in their harvest, we can trust them to fix these problems. Once they have more power. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/483 "2012-06-19T19:06:42Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > What about it? > > A person is indicated as having voted. You ask them if they voted. They say no. You have an unaccounted for vote. > > You can check their citizenship status as well (and any other criteria you like). If they say yes, they voted, but they are not actually an eligible voter, you have a fraudulent vote. Yes, that’s true. But it doesn’t seem likely that having committed the felony of voting, the interviewee will then confess to an interviewer that he committed the crime. You see, Hentor, when police seek to solve a crime, they don’t use the technique you’ve recommended, because they have found that criminals very often deny their crimes when asked. So: no. Your proposed method of uncovering non-citizen votes cast by asking people if they are non-citizen voters won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/484 "2012-06-19T19:21:34Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re trying to prove voter fraud doesn’t happen, primarily because we have no means to detect it if it ever did. Understand? NO! NO NO NO NO NO! That’s not what we’re trying to prove at all! We _know_, given every investigation ever made, that voter fraud is a negligible issue, rendering voter ID laws moot. We also know that voter ID creates a hurdle for a large portion of the population to jump over if they want to participate in our democracy. _You_ have to prove: a) That these investigations are using poor methodology/cannot possibly detect the fraud b) That voter fraud _is_ happening to an extent that voter ID laws would make things considerably better. See, this seems to be what you guys don’t get. You have the burden of proof. You claim “voter fraud is a serious issue, therefore we need Voter ID laws”, despite the fact that we never have in the past, then you are burdened with proving the first presupposition. If the claim, instead, is “voter fraud _could become_ a serious issue, therefore we need Voter ID laws”, then you’re just paranoid, but whatever. > [@](#): > > This response was to the poor working class advocate who holds three jobs that couldn’t possibly entertain or even think about a trip to the DMV, not ever for a driver’s license. How would that person find the time to vote? Voting is easier, less time-consuming, and all-around more important? > [@](#): > > How much voter fraud are you ok with? As little as humanly possible. _That’s why I oppose voter ID laws!_ See, what you’re missing is that the backswing of voter ID laws _also_ defraud voters! It defrauds anyone who couldn’t get voter ID in time, or couldn’t get voter ID period for whatever reason. And when every investigation for voter fraud comes up effectively blank, but 1/10th of the country lacks photo ID, I consider voter ID laws to be the real fraud issue here. > [@](#): > > The real issue isn’t the fact that it’s a pain to get it, it’s how much of a pain it ends up being. Too much pain, we change the rules a bit, ok? I have no idea what this is even about. > [@](#): > > Good question, maybe one that could be answered if they were required to show ID eh? Well, first of all, they are. Second of all, post 339. Read it. And, on a side note, _Someone_ doesn’t know how to use block quotes, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/485 "2012-06-19T19:22:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that’s true. > > But it doesn’t seem likely that having committed the felony of voting, the interviewee will then confess to an interviewer that he committed the crime. > > You see, Hentor, when police seek to solve a crime, they don’t use the technique you’ve recommended, because they have found that criminals very often deny their crimes when asked. > > So: no. Your proposed method of uncovering non-citizen votes cast by asking people if they are non-citizen voters won’t work. You’re not asking the criminal. You’re asking the citizen database, and the victims. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/486 "2012-06-19T19:26:04Z")
Here’s where we part company, **Budgie**. I don’t have any real issue with voter ID laws. My issue is using them as an excuse to commit political larceny. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/487 "2012-06-19T19:31:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that’s true. > > But it doesn’t seem likely that having committed the felony of voting, the interviewee will then confess to an interviewer that he committed the crime. > > You see, Hentor, when police seek to solve a crime, they don’t use the technique you’ve recommended, because they have found that criminals very often deny their crimes when asked. > > So: no. Your proposed method of uncovering non-citizen votes cast by asking people if they are non-citizen voters won’t work. It’s funny to see you be smug and stupid at the same time. Keep it up! If they deny casting the vote, you’ve got your case of voter fraud. If they say yes, but they are not a citizen, you’ve got your case of voter fraud. Of course you don’t rely on their own report of citizenship status. Or is it your claim that in the US it is impossible to verify citizenship status? Dimwit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/488 "2012-06-19T19:48:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Oh, so the bar is “virtually impossible”? So a poll tax of a dollar is okay, right? Since it’s not virtually impossible to get a dollar for even very poor people, right? > > Jesus-fuck, you’re amazing when operating in defense of your partisan allies. I didn’t use the phrase “virtually impossible” first. I was responding to [url=“[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15183258&postcount=460](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15183258&postcount=460)”]this post’s use of the standard. > [@](#): > > In any case, get people universal IDs and then require them to vote. Only a completely un-American asshole would disenfranchise millions of voters to keep hundreds from voting fraudulently. Only a completely un-American asshole would reject the right of the people’s lawful representatives to pass laws in accordance with the US Constitution, as voter ID laws are. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/489 "2012-06-19T19:50:39Z")
Its legal? And Constitutional? Where have I heard that before…? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/490 "2012-06-19T19:54:34Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s funny to see you be smug and stupid at the same time. Keep it up! > > If they deny casting the vote, you’ve got your case of voter fraud. > > If they say yes, but they are not a citizen, you’ve got your case of voter fraud. > > Of course you don’t rely on their own report of citizenship status. Or is it your claim that in the US it is impossible to verify citizenship status? > > Dimwit. Gee, Hentor, sure seems like you can educate me, here. So I look at the voter rolls, and discover that Sven Yorgensen, of 1365 Walnut Street, Apt G., is a registered voter who voted in the last ten elections. I visit Mr. Yorgensen’s apartment and knock on the door. “Mr. Yorgensen, did you vote in this most recent election?” “Yes, I did.” “And, sir, are you a citizen?” “Yes.” “Do you happen to have some proof of that, sir?” “Kyss mig i arslet!” And Sven slams the door in my face. The name Sven Yorgensen does not appear in any INS databases – that is, he’s not a naturalized citizen nor was he admitted via visa. What now, Detective Hentor? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/491 "2012-06-19T19:57:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its legal? And Constitutional? Where have I heard that before…? Probably you heard it sarcastically, from un-American assholes who reject our representative democracy and wish to substitute their foreign, un-American ways. That would be my guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/492 "2012-06-19T19:58:11Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You’re not asking the criminal. You’re asking the citizen database, and the victims. Er… the “citizen database?” What’s that? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/493 "2012-06-19T20:02:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The name Sven Yorgensen does not appear in any INS databases – that is, he’s not a naturalized citizen nor was he admitted via visa. Well, shouldn’t that already disqualify him from voting? If he doesn’t show up on the databases, and you can’t establish that he’s a citizen, that should at least be enough to demand an SSN. Or? … Wait. THE USA DOESN’T HAVE A DATABASE OF LEGAL CITIZENS?!? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/494 "2012-06-19T20:09:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, shouldn’t that already disqualify him from voting? If he doesn’t show up on the databases, and you can’t establish that he’s a citizen, that should at least be enough to demand an SSN. Or? > > … > > Wait. THE USA DOESN’T HAVE A DATABASE OF LEGAL CITIZENS?!? No. The USA does not have a database of legal citizens. The INS maintains a database of admitted aliens, and of naturalized citizens. So if you came here legally and then overstayed your visa, we can prove you’re illegal. But if you snuck across the border, as Sven did, there’s no entry in that database for you. And there is no database of legal citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/495 "2012-06-19T20:10:57Z")
Have… have you and Hentor and your pals been picturing that there’s some database of legal citizens all this time? 10:1 odds on both these propositions: [spoiler] (1) Budget Player Cadet acknolwedges that this changes his view, at least a bit, and (2) Hentor insists the new information (that there’s no database of citizens) doesn’t matter a bit Let’s see how I do.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/496 "2012-06-19T20:15:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The name Sven Yorgensen does not appear in any INS databases – that is, he’s not a naturalized citizen nor was he admitted via visa. > > What now, Detective Hentor? Hmm, I don’t know. Shoot myself? Or maybe, just maybe, Sven is a natural born citizen. He’s not naturalized, nor was he a visa entrant. And it explains his indignant refusal to entertain your stupid request for proof of citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/497 "2012-06-19T20:18:54Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Hmm, I don’t know. Shoot myself? Or maybe, just maybe, Sven is a natural born citizen. He’s not naturalized, nor was he a visa entrant. And it explains his indignant refusal to entertain your stupid request for proof of citizenship. Well, the idea of this exercise was to illustrate how to catch a non-citizen who registered and voted. So, yes, Sven might well be a natural born citizen, complete with indignant refusal to entertain my stupid request for proof of citizenship. Or Sven might be reluctant to confess a felony to an interviewer. Hentor’s commentary to me was that I was a dimwit for not figuring out how to test this proposition. I bet Hentor thinks there’s some master database of US citizens. But tell me, CannyDan: do you believe that asking Sven these question demonstrates that he is a natural-born citizen? Or a better question: how would we go about catching a non-citizen who voted illegally? Specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/498 "2012-06-19T20:30:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Have… have you and Hentor and your pals been picturing that there’s some database of legal citizens all this time? > > 10:1 odds on both these propositions: > > [spoiler] > (1) Budget Player Cadet acknolwedges that this changes his view, at least a bit, and > (2) Hentor insists the new information (that there’s no database of citizens) doesn’t matter a bit > > Let’s see how I do.[/spoiler] I mean, I really shouldn’t be surprised, but _holy shit on pancake WHAT THE FUCK USA?!_ > [@Bricker](#): > > No. The USA does not have a database of legal citizens. > > The INS maintains a database of admitted aliens, and of naturalized citizens. So if you came here legally and then overstayed your visa, we can prove you’re illegal. > > But if you snuck across the border, as Sven did, there’s no entry in that database for you. > > And there is no database of legal citizens. As said: if you don’t show up in that database, just ask 'em for their SSN. EDIT: Wait, no, hang on, that seems like a poor solution… ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/499 "2012-06-19T20:36:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, the idea of this exercise was to illustrate how to catch a non-citizen who registered and voted. > > So, yes, Sven might well be a natural born citizen, complete with indignant refusal to entertain my stupid request for proof of citizenship. > > Or Sven might be reluctant to confess a felony to an interviewer. > > Hentor’s commentary to me was that I was a dimwit for not figuring out how to test this proposition. I bet Hentor thinks there’s some master database of US citizens. > > But tell me, CannyDan: do you believe that asking Sven these question demonstrates that he is a natural-born citizen? > > Or a better question: how would we go about catching a non-citizen who voted illegally? Specifically. Catching a miscreant is tangential to this thread. Some of us are claiming that actual voter fraud (by citizens or non-citizens) is so small a problem as not to require a solution, let alone the ‘solution’ of voter ID laws. We’ve noted that there is virtually no evidence of such voter fraud. The “ask someone whose name has been checked off as voted if in fact they did so” was offered as a method to investigate the presence of such fraud. Getting replies of “no” would indicate that another had voted in their place, thus constituting fraud. So far, there has been no demonstration by this or any other method that fraud is a significant problem. Lacking such a demonstration of actual fraud, your demand that we now provide a means to convict the perpetrators of this hypothetical crime is putting the distracting cart well before the actual horse. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/500 "2012-06-19T20:37:58Z")
He’s snookered you, guys. Got you arguing on his preferred turf, and his preferred topic. ETA: **Canny Dan** sez. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=26)